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KINK SHAMING / Some thoughts about it
7 years ago
Hey everyone! It's been a while since my last in-depth journal about something, aside the usual reopening for commissions and whatnot... I just thought it could be nice to share with you people some thoughts I've been through recently, while working on my latest comic commission for Keto: "Beach bull-y".
When Keto asked about this commission, he first checked about my disposition about this fetish: was it something beyond my comfort zone? As many of you will know already, the plot and the action of the comic is centered on a particular fetish, or kink, often perceived as deviant or vicious: cuckolding. While I do agree this might not be everyone's cup of tea - in fact, it's not mine either! - I still felt comfortable in drawing it and, after some reasoning, I decided and accepted to be in charge for it. To be honest: this comic was a huge project, in fact being one of the longest comics I've ever done, and a 3 months of work planned!
A big challenge indeed, and also very intense from another point of view: specifically, the reactions and the general feedbacks about this fetish. Reading some harsh comments really got me reasoning about a lot of things. Keto talked to me about this happening all the time: people reaching out just to insult, or just to try making him feel bad about those commissions: actually, Keto was so cute in checking out on me, about my reactions to such comments on my own artworks... I really appreciated that! Though I'm a big strong hoss - least from a mental perspective, LOL - I still couldn't help but be puzzled at some comments. Most of times I didn't even reply to those kind of comments, but I assure you I read everything!
I think cuckolding is a triggering, polarizing fetish: one of those stimulating a strong reaction from the viewers. Of course I think it's mostly due to the nature of it, being mistakable for generic cheating or rude/abusive speech: which leads to something borderline when you think of consent, too. That's a lot to elaborate, and I think so many people got a bit lost somewhere along the road... One easy way to put it into the right light, IMHO, could be considering cuckolding under the group of SM and humiliation fetishes: in fact you have the perception of blurry consent lines there, as a viewer, but that's an easy mistake: EVERYTHING taking place in a SM context is actually regulated, agreed on and consensual. When it isn't, there's a safeword and everything stops immediately!
Reading the comments, also, there were some occasions in which people really gave out loud what they thought about what was going on - sometimes not in the happiest ways... I guess what really got me was the merciless kink-shaming happening there, which makes it so comical in this very fandom. In my eyes, this Furry Fandom shows and displays a variety of fetishes and kinks, truly incredible in fantasy and numbers... At the end of the day, everyone gets off to what they prefer and, while that particular thing might not be arousing to me, it could be driving other people over the edge. As long as it is artworks, there's no shame and nothing bad in either drawing it or jerking off to it. Nobody is hurt, it's just fiction... You have no right in making someone feel bad for what they masturbate to, no matter what it is. But even in real life: as long as there's consent and nobody is getting hurt, what's the point of getting so upset?
TLDR; Stop kink-shaming: it's so wrong in a generic context, go figure in a fandom like the Furry Fandom...!
I guess that's all for now, hopefully it wasn't too big of a wall of text and yet enjoable. What are your thoughts about it? Have you been experiencing some similar situations? Please leave a comment below, I'm curious to talk about it!
Peace out! ✌️
When Keto asked about this commission, he first checked about my disposition about this fetish: was it something beyond my comfort zone? As many of you will know already, the plot and the action of the comic is centered on a particular fetish, or kink, often perceived as deviant or vicious: cuckolding. While I do agree this might not be everyone's cup of tea - in fact, it's not mine either! - I still felt comfortable in drawing it and, after some reasoning, I decided and accepted to be in charge for it. To be honest: this comic was a huge project, in fact being one of the longest comics I've ever done, and a 3 months of work planned!
A big challenge indeed, and also very intense from another point of view: specifically, the reactions and the general feedbacks about this fetish. Reading some harsh comments really got me reasoning about a lot of things. Keto talked to me about this happening all the time: people reaching out just to insult, or just to try making him feel bad about those commissions: actually, Keto was so cute in checking out on me, about my reactions to such comments on my own artworks... I really appreciated that! Though I'm a big strong hoss - least from a mental perspective, LOL - I still couldn't help but be puzzled at some comments. Most of times I didn't even reply to those kind of comments, but I assure you I read everything!
I think cuckolding is a triggering, polarizing fetish: one of those stimulating a strong reaction from the viewers. Of course I think it's mostly due to the nature of it, being mistakable for generic cheating or rude/abusive speech: which leads to something borderline when you think of consent, too. That's a lot to elaborate, and I think so many people got a bit lost somewhere along the road... One easy way to put it into the right light, IMHO, could be considering cuckolding under the group of SM and humiliation fetishes: in fact you have the perception of blurry consent lines there, as a viewer, but that's an easy mistake: EVERYTHING taking place in a SM context is actually regulated, agreed on and consensual. When it isn't, there's a safeword and everything stops immediately!
Reading the comments, also, there were some occasions in which people really gave out loud what they thought about what was going on - sometimes not in the happiest ways... I guess what really got me was the merciless kink-shaming happening there, which makes it so comical in this very fandom. In my eyes, this Furry Fandom shows and displays a variety of fetishes and kinks, truly incredible in fantasy and numbers... At the end of the day, everyone gets off to what they prefer and, while that particular thing might not be arousing to me, it could be driving other people over the edge. As long as it is artworks, there's no shame and nothing bad in either drawing it or jerking off to it. Nobody is hurt, it's just fiction... You have no right in making someone feel bad for what they masturbate to, no matter what it is. But even in real life: as long as there's consent and nobody is getting hurt, what's the point of getting so upset?
TLDR; Stop kink-shaming: it's so wrong in a generic context, go figure in a fandom like the Furry Fandom...!
I guess that's all for now, hopefully it wasn't too big of a wall of text and yet enjoable. What are your thoughts about it? Have you been experiencing some similar situations? Please leave a comment below, I'm curious to talk about it!
Peace out! ✌️
I don't get why people use their energy to kink shame others instead of minding their own business. Especially when it's a fictional comic or art, why would people even bother "wasting" their time on something they don't like? I never understood that. :/
Now, considering this specific comic, I am not a fan of the bullying part either, but I don't care. I just blend the dialogue out in my mind - or just don't read it - and enjoy your artwork. =)
I also empathize with you, Rov, and feel sorry for your bad experiences here.
I hope that these "haters" learn how to ignore matters like this they dislike and mind their own business.
Anyways, thank you! And I gotta say this wasn't a bad experience, but a revealing one about how many furries are targeting eachother fetishes instead of... just live their lives and fantasies peacefully?
While our community is generally regarded as really welcoming and incredibly tolerant, it hurts all the more when you find out it's not always true. I myself have a very wide range of kinks of all kinds, some delving into extreme less or more, so I can cope. In any case, don't let this affect you in the slightest! People get upset all the time over banal things; it is what it is. And it doesn't mean they're right. :)
I really liked how SpottyJaguar recently approached the topic of borderline and dark themes in art. Since it kinda relates to this, I might as well link the journal post. I do think it contains some interesting thoughts, regarding how kinks and fetishes such as this (and beyond) are received by others, or intriguing for some artists.
About the journal by SpottyJaguar... Fun fact, I was actually going to read it right after posting this journal myself, LOL You anticipated me! I just finished reading it, and I gotta say I am projecting so much it feels like this 2019 started in similar ways for me and him! I'm gonna send him a support message
You too have support in me, and many others I believe. :)
P.S.: That comic is real hawt btw. Just saying~
I think part of the reason it sets people off is that some people can't understand it (if they were in Duke's position they would react differently and be hurt/angry/upset). And therefore they can't separate their own feelings from those of someone like Duke who gets off on it. I saw some cases where people criticised Duke for being a masochist or having low self-esteem and even saying he needed psychological help (as someone with a degree in Psych... no).
As a whole the cuckolding kink probably gets more negative attention because of the upsetting feelings it can cause for people who don't understand it and can't fathom how someone could actually enjoy it. I think this happened because people simply couldn't understand how someone could be turned on by cuckolding and were trying to come up with reasons why. That's when the hurtful comments come out, because when someone "normal" like them doesn't like it, they assume someone who DOES like it must have something "wrong" with their head.
But that's not true. It's just a kink and kinks come from all kinds of different places and experiences and for all kinds of different reasons, many of them perfectly normal and healthy. There are a million kinks out there that will be confusing to the people who don't "get" them, and I'm sure many of the people criticising the comic are into some fuckin weird kinky shit themselves. Cuckolding as a fetish is just treated differently because it makes people feel bad when they put themselves in Duke's place if they don't understand how the fetish works, and when people's emotions are fired up, they say things.
You did a great job on the comic. I love Duke's characters (I'm writing a story about them for him currently) so it was a real pleasure to see Duke and Mako in the comic. Thanks for the great work. ^^
I will just be blunt on my thoughts on fetishes but I won't condemn anyone for being into something.
I always found the best way to deal with them is to tell them if they don't like it, then fuck off. They don't respond well to it, but they respond to logic even less.
And this was just cuckolding... god help us if you do feral, vore, hyper or any of those, cause that really gets the pearl-clutching douchebag brigade out in force.
Ultimately none of this is real. The horse doesn't exist. Neither doe the orca or the shark. It is a work of fiction. If you don't like cuckolding, then 1) don't follow a comic about it 2) don't do it. But stop complaining about it when others do it. I honestly wonder how many folk who bitch about it either do it or want to, but feel ashamed about it and this is their way to feel better. You know like the closet case jock who beats up a gay guy but then goes on grindr and gets some twink to suck him off.
As many have said, I find it rather funny that furries.. fucking furries are kink-shaming. You know the group that the vast bulk of people are convinced are a buncha degenerate animal fuckers?
Addendum. I didn't even like the damn comic. I like Rov's art style, but the dialogue made me wince and I was hoping the shark would remember the horse is prey and bite his nuts off. (Also, was it just me or was the orca and shark about the same damn size? Just seems off that orca is going on about his partners dick size when he's packing just as much. Shark boy should have just turned that back onto him... but now I'm ranting lol) But you know what I didn't do? Whine about it and try and make others feel bad about it. That's the difference.
People and logic...
Of course where so much things come together there is also disparity and you will find many things you don't like or that trigger you. It happens, but it's no reason to yell at people and kink-shame them. Like somebody said above, just ignore what you are not interested in and go your way instead of blaming anybody for what he enjoys. That's how a open and respectful community works.
You've drawn a number of comics and have a huge gallery full of amazing art to look at, so why would I deliberately go out of my way to focus time and energy, just on hating something you create? It would honestly be way too time consuming for me, to start an argument over something so superficial like a furry porn comic. Especially since this was a commission - a concept many people fail to understand. I've also received negative comments about picture themes or characters, that I had no control over, because they were what the customer wanted. And I think those people really need to take a step back and reflect on how it would make them feel, if others would say these things to them.
I seriously applaud you for drawing fetishes that are known to be polarizing and argued over. It goes to show that you have a strong sense of self-confidence and I really respect that. I wish more people in the furry fandom, would take up your advice and I would hope people came to the realization that it's okay to not like something, just don't be a dick about it.
Some people will be ok with cuckolding and be upset when someone kink shames them, but will turn around in the same breath and call for your head on a stake for liking feral art because they see it as you going home and screwing your dog. Whether its the case or not, you can call that kink shaming as well. I see it all over twitter atm, and like cuckolding, the shaming comes from morals and where you fall on the scale. That alone somehow validates in their mind, nasty comments and "calls to action" in some cases. Even sending mobs after you. It gets ugly quick when their moral code is on the line. And with that we are blind to when we kink shame others unknowingly, thinking we have the high ground for whatever reason. Another good one that upsets people is rape play, even when it's clearly stated there are safe words in place. Again, it breaks the very foundation of their morals, and therefore they see validation in shaming you for it.
I think someone here touched on why some of these people will kink shame cuckolding really well, they see it as abuse because that's how it would be for them in that situation, forgetting its just art. And in the furry world, you can draw/make anything you damn well please. People find it REALLY hard to distinguish art from reality. They think if you put it on paper, you're doing the same irl, which let's be honest here, most kinks drawn here on FA, stay here on FA, and don't cross over to real life, or if they do, it's between 2 (or more) consenting adults.
While my opinion doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, I didn't like the comic really at all, the arts fantastic! The kink and wording used in the comic? Eh, far from my thing, but that's ok because if you aimed to please everyone, your gallery would be empty. I just glanced over it and moved on.
Moral of the story? People will always say what they want. When you post something on a forum that allows comments, you're opening yourself to not only just praise, and should not desire only praise either. However, nasty comments are the product of ignorance and misunderstanding, and should be taken with a grain of salt. Do what you love no matter what others say, as long as you're not hurting anyone who cares?
And you wrote something that's actually very interesting to me: connecting kink-shaming with a too-strict moral code in combo with an incapacity at some levels to separate yourself/other or reality/fiction. It makes sense a kink that triggers all of those will inflame fast, like smashing all the buttons on a delicate controller
at first the comic came off he was simply cheating and then being flat out rude in front of him is all, i think if it came out more clear it was culkolding then maybe people would not of reacted so much..but same time read the descriptions people x3
also also...like how many comics and such people have looked at with people supposedly cheating on their partners yet still got off to it but add some rude language and its all ohhhhhhh thats bad!!
keep doing what you want dude x3 people are weird.
You keep being you, Rov. We love your stuff
Hell, replace the word CUCK with SLUT and suddenly it's a-okay for most people.
I think what it really is, is that people like the content of the art, but not the content of the written message.
Don't let it get to you, and just keep doing what you want to do and what you agreed to be paid to do.
What do I do about it? Pass over it and move on. People are into what they're into, and when an artist posts stuff into my feed that I'm not a fan of I either unfollow or just remove the post notification. No need to leave nasty feedback and such.
I wish that FA had keyword filters so I could just skip out on the stuff I find distasteful, but oh well.
A fantasy is a fantasy, claiming it creates real life problems you are no better than the same people claiming video games cause violence. The only real life problem is your personal distaste for it.
Long-story-short, it seems I was supposed to agree with her, because in not doing so, in having my own view, I am/was in the wrong, and she made many people upset with me by claiming I "harassed her."
We are in a day-and-age where everyone is entitled. They feel they should have a say in how everything goes, whether or not it involves them or not. It truly is a shame that humanity has slipped to this low level...all you can really do is remember that, you do what you do, no one else can influence it but you.
Some wise words that took me years to understand, and still slip through my grasp at times: "You can't please everyone."
I think the comic is coming along well. In my RolePlays these days, I can understand being in the Stallions' position, cuckholding the Shark, and I've dabbled in that fetish-it's not necessarily mine, but if it's my partner(s), then so be it.
Luckly I had my back covered this time, and that was a lot easier for me to deal with the situation...!
But reading the comments of people getting so butthurt over a fictional scenario... Delicious. *sips tea*
you don't need permission to like something
While kink shaming in general is bad enough, it's particularly ironic when the act of kink shaming effectively does, to real people, and without their consent, a version of what the complained-about kink does in a totally fictional context to totally fictional characters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0la5DBtOVNI
-End Rant-
Ooh well, is funny to see them explode for such a little thing like a not-even "medium" kink, and cringy by how hypocrite they can be each day too, but whatever, there's no need to waste too much time nor attention with "angry kids".
Good luck! ~ <3
I've had similar thoughts and discussions with some of my friends before, since I've seen quite some negative comments in the past
and a lot of them came down to people having some sort of problem with others fantasies/kinks/ideas/preferences.
Had it happen personally too, since I did commission a cuckolding comic before myself too.
I always feel bad for both the commissioner and the artist whenever I see that someone writes a negative comment,
and when it's about kinkshaming, I feel like it's also difficult to reason with the person who wrote the comment,
as it really requires a proper discussion to hopefully make them realize that they're being hurtful and in a way intolerant.
It's great to see that you and Keto and many others don't take these comments personally, as I think that is really the
way to go and I do it the same way, still, of course that doesn't justify them in any way.
I think it's not particularly a furry problem though but rather a problem of internet comments in general. You can see it on videos,
music, anything that is posted online really. Instead of skipping the things that we're not interested in, some take any sort of
personal frustration that they have in them and reflect them onto people that post things they don't enjoy.
But additionally, as you already described, cuckolding as a fetish is also very very often misunderstood and I also feel like it could be that people
who have made negative experiences in relationships in the past are more likely to feel "offended", as they interpret it wrong and reflect it onto personal experiences.
And even though any kink can always be interpreted and lived out and experienced in many different ways, this one, as you stated,
is often even more about trust. Trust in your partner, the feeling like you can do and experience things that are more out of the ordinary,
require to go into different roles, all to make sure the partners desires and needs are fulfilled, even if to the outside it looks like they're "punished".
It is, in the end, about trust and pleasure.
And on top of that, what people are commenting about is ART of a certain subject, which in a lot of times can be fantasies, fiction, etc. of some sort.
And to get angry and upset at something fictional seems so silly if you think about it.
In any way, I hope I didn't write too much and it's somehow readable. To give an excuse if it is hard to read, English isn't my native tongue and I just came home from a workday. :D
Actually wanted to reply to this post earlier but then I was busy and forgot about it.
Thanks for opening this discussion Rov <3
Getting to your comment, I think you made a point: it really takes a lot of trust to really put those kinks in real life, but I see no problem as long as it's both consensual and hurts nobody. At the end of the day, it's just people experimenting with their sexual lives and that's their right, so... what? LOL
people have different taste. Stating that you dislike something won't change the fact that the commissioner (and many others) do enjoy the subject.
You also wouldn't talk to someone on the street, telling them that you dislike the clothes they are wearing.
You technically could, but it would be very offensive and disrespectful.
So it's for everyone to accept that people have different taste and that it's normal we don't enjoy all the different shapes and ideas and fantasies, but that
we should rather appreciate and comment on the things that we DO like, as everyone involved will appreciate that.
And you said in your first comment that you hated the dialogue, which was part of the subject. If it was cute sensual conversation instead it would've been a completely different subject so in that sense the dialogue was part of the subject.