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WNCFurs and BlueRidge FurFare have a discrimination problem.
6 years ago
UPDATE: A link to this journal has been sent to the WNCFurs/BRFF admin who was much more courteous in their handling of the topic. Not sure if anything will come of it, but THANKYOU to EVERYONE who replied to this journal and helped spread the word. Yes, even the people who dissented.
It's taken me a couple days to calm down enough to discuss this topic and address the major issues going on.
About a week ago, I was made aware that a local fur group, WNCFurs, for Western North Carolina, was putting together a new con, BlueRidge FurFare for 2020. A new con, practically in my back-yard, HELL YEAH, I was Excited. But that quickly changed. In the process of talking to the folks in their Telegram groups, a discussion about Chakats came up, and when I mentioned that Chakats are Hermaphrodites, the reaction I got was... unexpected. I was told by their admins that Herm/Hermaphrodite was a slur, and that I can't use that term, I can't identify myself as it in their groups, and that I have to use "intersex" instead. The discussion was taken to PMs.
Here's screen-caps of the relevant convos with two of their admin staff. I will not be including names, because I do not want them brigaded or harassed in any way.
Admin 1- http://prntscr.com/naqxfp http://prntscr.com/naqxq9 http://prntscr.com/naqy5w
Admin 2- http://prntscr.com/naqyk8 <Same convo as above was forwarded> http://prntscr.com/naqyzy http://prntscr.com/naqzc4 (Prior link screencap cut off one message slightly to avoid disclosing a name.) http://prntscr.com/nar0a9 http://prntscr.com/nar0kd http://prntscr.com/nar0r7
Yes, I was hella-angry at the time this was going on. And yes, I said things in a manner that could have seriously been better. But I stand by my points.
There was a Third Admin, who DID discuss the matter with me in a much more reasoned and nuanced manner, and to that person, I give my sincere thanks. But when two of the three Admins take that kind of stance... There's a massive problem.
NO ONE should be allowed to dictate what is, and isn't, OK for another person to Identify Themselves as, Publicly OR Privately.
Hermaphrodite/Herm IS NOT A SLUR. It's a scientific, biological, WIDELY USED term.
Intersex is a relatively NEW term, and it's an umbrella/blanket term that can cover anyone who's got a mix of masculine and feminine traits. Effectively whitewashing all the amazing and nuanced differences of the people who aren't binary.
And I refuse to have part of my personal identity covered up like this.
Being told that I'm not allowed to identify myself as something that is a major part of my personal identity was deeply hurtful. Being a Chakat isn't just part of a character I play. Anyone who knows me at all knows that Chakat Blackstripe isn't just my name in the community, it's part of the core of my being. It's ME.
How is it that people can claim to be the 'tolerant' ones, and then be so utterly hypocritical and discriminatory towards one of the communities that is one of the smallest minorities out there.
And to see this all coming from a group, and a con organizing team that's local to me... I was devastated and enraged.
This is exactly what's wrong with the Authoritarianism. Other people telling you what you can or can't be/do/identify as. No one has that right.
I don't want anyone going after those groups. What I DO want is this...
IF YOU ARE A HERMAPHRODITES/HERM IN OUR COMMUNITY, OR WANT TO SHOW YOUR SUPPORT FOR OUR WONDERFUL NICHE IN THE GENDER SPECTRUM, REPLY TO THIS JOURNAL WITH: "MY GENDER IS NOT A SLUR!" OR "I SUPPORT OUR HERMS!"
And most importantly, SHARE THIS JOURNAL. Signal boost this PLEASE. So we can change the ignorant and uneducated view of these people and hopefully get them to backstep away from this hurtful, harmful, and discriminatory policy position.
Journal edited to remove an unnecessary statement of my personal politics that people rightly questioned in comments.
It's taken me a couple days to calm down enough to discuss this topic and address the major issues going on.
About a week ago, I was made aware that a local fur group, WNCFurs, for Western North Carolina, was putting together a new con, BlueRidge FurFare for 2020. A new con, practically in my back-yard, HELL YEAH, I was Excited. But that quickly changed. In the process of talking to the folks in their Telegram groups, a discussion about Chakats came up, and when I mentioned that Chakats are Hermaphrodites, the reaction I got was... unexpected. I was told by their admins that Herm/Hermaphrodite was a slur, and that I can't use that term, I can't identify myself as it in their groups, and that I have to use "intersex" instead. The discussion was taken to PMs.
Here's screen-caps of the relevant convos with two of their admin staff. I will not be including names, because I do not want them brigaded or harassed in any way.
Admin 1- http://prntscr.com/naqxfp http://prntscr.com/naqxq9 http://prntscr.com/naqy5w
Admin 2- http://prntscr.com/naqyk8 <Same convo as above was forwarded> http://prntscr.com/naqyzy http://prntscr.com/naqzc4 (Prior link screencap cut off one message slightly to avoid disclosing a name.) http://prntscr.com/nar0a9 http://prntscr.com/nar0kd http://prntscr.com/nar0r7
Yes, I was hella-angry at the time this was going on. And yes, I said things in a manner that could have seriously been better. But I stand by my points.
There was a Third Admin, who DID discuss the matter with me in a much more reasoned and nuanced manner, and to that person, I give my sincere thanks. But when two of the three Admins take that kind of stance... There's a massive problem.
NO ONE should be allowed to dictate what is, and isn't, OK for another person to Identify Themselves as, Publicly OR Privately.
Hermaphrodite/Herm IS NOT A SLUR. It's a scientific, biological, WIDELY USED term.
Intersex is a relatively NEW term, and it's an umbrella/blanket term that can cover anyone who's got a mix of masculine and feminine traits. Effectively whitewashing all the amazing and nuanced differences of the people who aren't binary.
And I refuse to have part of my personal identity covered up like this.
Being told that I'm not allowed to identify myself as something that is a major part of my personal identity was deeply hurtful. Being a Chakat isn't just part of a character I play. Anyone who knows me at all knows that Chakat Blackstripe isn't just my name in the community, it's part of the core of my being. It's ME.
How is it that people can claim to be the 'tolerant' ones, and then be so utterly hypocritical and discriminatory towards one of the communities that is one of the smallest minorities out there.
And to see this all coming from a group, and a con organizing team that's local to me... I was devastated and enraged.
This is exactly what's wrong with the Authoritarianism. Other people telling you what you can or can't be/do/identify as. No one has that right.
I don't want anyone going after those groups. What I DO want is this...
IF YOU ARE A HERMAPHRODITES/HERM IN OUR COMMUNITY, OR WANT TO SHOW YOUR SUPPORT FOR OUR WONDERFUL NICHE IN THE GENDER SPECTRUM, REPLY TO THIS JOURNAL WITH: "MY GENDER IS NOT A SLUR!" OR "I SUPPORT OUR HERMS!"
And most importantly, SHARE THIS JOURNAL. Signal boost this PLEASE. So we can change the ignorant and uneducated view of these people and hopefully get them to backstep away from this hurtful, harmful, and discriminatory policy position.
Journal edited to remove an unnecessary statement of my personal politics that people rightly questioned in comments.
Please share this around.
This really surprises me that things seem to be improving for LGBTQ+ community but yet in furry people have this thing about herms. Even in my limited time online being a fur, a Chakat. That is have seen some of this myself where even for my character its must choose between its fine to be gay or lesbian but have to be male or female. only a few will grudgingly add intersex or trans.
Feel very similar to Blackstripe, my sona Cyfur is not just a character but many parts of my core self just in a ideal vessel.
I'm right there with you. I proudly identify as a Herm and I don't like others telling me I can't call myself what I am.
But to me, that shit doesn't matter. If you want me to call you a cuntboy, I will, no qualms.
Intersex is too broad of a term to really describe my gender, hermaphrodite isn't accurate, "intersex male" it's still too broad, and any of the shortenings such as "C-boy" sound like saying cuntboy but with extra steps. Vagentleman works fine, but it seems a bit pretentious and silly to me x3
I'm in the same boat as you. I proudly identify as herm and Chakat Duskwatcher isn't just a character I play, shi is me.
I have an issue with the term intersex because, as you said, its a blanket, i have no wish to identify as a blanket term when there is a term that matched my gender identity, and the gender of my fursona.
https://www.furaffinity.net/journal/9015320/
I will note, however, that there is some dangerous and disingenuous hyperbole being thrown around here. The political commentary being added here undermines the otherwise positive message being shared. In one breath you support people's ability to self-identify, in the next you cast aspersions about a political group that's typically only ever invoked by people who gaslight and project. I would not appreciate having my online gender identity be associated with this behavior or your personal political views.
https://prnt.sc/naqzc4
"How is it that people can claim to be the 'tolerant' ones, and then be so utterly hypocritical and discriminatory towards one of the communities that is one of the smallest minorities out there."
"This is exactly what's wrong with the Authoritarian PC culture. This is why an overwhelming majority of the US population (70+%) says it's a major problem in our culture. This is why I can't stand the vast majority of the 'Far Left' who seek to impose their own ideologies on others by force."
and by another user, which you do not rebuke, "Down with the SJW Authoritarians!"
Be careful about moving the goalposts or redefining what you said to mean something that wasn't what you said. Also, be careful about falling into the "Both Sides" fallacy, which is represented by your "Extremism on any front leads to issues" statement. It's a "Ship of Theseus" style of pushing a narrative.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui-ArJRqEvU
And, I most certainly do fall to that 'both sides' point, because, as a Libertarian Centrist, I find myself at odds with points from both angles. The one thing I can say is that I strongly oppose Authoritarianism, which can come from either Left or Right.
And Authoritarianism is the crux of the issue. Why should anyone have the ability to determine for another individual what that individual Identifies themselves as?
So why would I rebuke someone for coming out against Authoritarians? They're the problem. No matter Left or Right or Center. Authoritarianism is the problem.
However, this post was made to have the discussion, and as long as it's constructive, I won't remove anything, as I believe in freedom of speech and expression. Blatant trolling or non-constructive posts are another matter
Additionally, "the far left" is often used to refer to anyone who leans to the left. It's used as a very broad brush by many, with nebulous standards for what people consider "Far". You'd be better served by using more specific language, and perhaps referring to the specific movements that create the behavior you take issue with. Particularly because the left is not and never has been one solid whole.
You say I ought to use a more specific term... Please, educate me, Give Me a more appropriate term and I will be happy to specify further.
In your response to Echeon, i think you actually hit on the better term to use yourself. Authoritarianism. And the thing is, you can be far left without being authoritarian. Authoritarian/libertarian is an entirely different axis.
https://ashnavabi.com/2015/03/27/wh.....rom-economics/
Also yes. I may not agree with a lot of Echoen's politics, but Echoen always presents things in an amazing manner.
I will definitely be sharing this journal.
There are terms in the fandom that need some changing, (Shemale and cuntboy.) herm is not one of them. And uh...I meant to say something short and simple...wrote a novel. Oh well.
For the better part of the last 8 years, I have been represented by Captain Karuil Dryke, steampunk foxrabbit airship pirate. Born a Hermaphrodite, truly possessing BOTH genders traits, and I have embraced the term and I feel that anyone who labels a known SCIENTIFIC classification as a slur when used correctly is fucking mental. I know that it has been used as one and many SJW Transfolk are among those who have attempted to call it as such have gone a bit off the deep end.
As a liberal who doesn't fall into the marching steps of other so-called 'liberals' (at least, what the general public thinks about when they hear the term 'liberal')... I must also say that these sorts of vocal idiots give us sensible people a really bad name... and that's even worse than twisting the meaning of a couple of words. It's mass public defamation, really. It sucks, being lumped in with these sorts of politics, when you disagree almost as strongly with BOTH sides.
In reality, there's a lot of branches to the "left", not just one. When in doubt, everyone should just ask, rather than assume someone's political preferences fall into their personal perception of what it means to be "left". If people would do that, they'd find they agree on a lot more than they think.
I kind of see where they are coming from, however. True hermaphroditism does not occur in humans, so the word herm applied to humans is biologically inaccurate and has been used a slur. But then again, many of the words the LGBTQ community has adopted or reclaimed have been used as slurs.
Now, when it comes to chakats, herm is absolutely the right word to use. Chakats are, after all, true hermaphrodites in the biological sense of the word. Speaking as Meadowleaf, I'm not comfortable calling myself intersex, because I feel that word reinforces the concept of binary sex and invalidates both my sex *and* gender.
It goes over my head while problems like that happens for so little reasons. The only times I've ever seen herm being used negatively is from situations like this. It may have been used as a slur in the past, but the real meaning of herm is inchanged.
It's still sometimes a confusing gray area when it comes to exactly what some characters/people are, but the important thing is that despite what the identitarians proclaim, we are not defined simply by our skin tone, gender or sex, et.. And as such, to consider these things as slurs or to associate hatred for these things solely for what they are is disgusting. I may not fully understand it all, but to me, it's stupid for people to put something like a scientific, biological term like this in the same category as something like racial insults just because it offends/triggers them or whatever the REAL reason is.
As a very gender fluid bunny there are times I feel very much a mix and frankly as a herm is one of the times I feel best about myself. The Intersex term is one that has confused me as to exactly what the Effington it means? Is a mix of language terms that frankly don't mean what it is being used for. Sex I think everyone has a decent idea of the basics of that meaning. Inter- as a prefix means between in most cases. Or essentially neither one nor the other. And for those thinking in binary that would mean no gender at all. The other main meaning of Inter- is connection. A connection between the two (assumed) separate states of gender in one person. How do you connect such? Is there like a highway with off-ramps and gas stations? I would say Intersex is a slur long before I would say Hermaphrodite is.
And though very rare, fully functional Hermaphrodites do exist in humans. Usually through a case of Chimearism . Where two fertilized zygotes in the womb combine and become one fetus. Often this means having organs from one and blood/bones from the other and such combinations. This happens more often than many people realize. Often those born with such go through life never knowing that their blood DNA is different than their organs DNA because they were compatible and did not ever cause a medical condition. (both being from same parents just slightly different DNA combinations means far more often than not will be compatible) Having two sets of genitalia both develop does sometimes occur with this condition and one is one set of DNA and the other the second set of DNA.
I support our herms! Heh.
I may be a boring male human but even I know Intersex is BS, let people call themselves what they want to be called.
Is it a naturally occurring configuration of both male and female sexual reproductive organs? Yes. This qualifies it as a biological Sex.
Is it a condition where someone can identify with having both masculine and feminine traits mixed in one? Yes. This qualifies it as a Gender.
It's also rather painfully obvious that you're posting from a Sockpuppet account intended to keep you anonymous. Literally created just before the posting of this comment for the sole purpose of doing so, with no other activity on the account. Nothing wrong with doing this. But it does show that whoever you are, you're unwilling to stand behind your beliefs or your arguments. Next time you want to engage with a concept, have the courage to stand for what you're saying.
As for the herm gender/sex confusion, my understanding is that cis-gendered means your gender matches the sex you are born with, yet gender politics asserts that gender is not sex. Man does not equal male, woman does not equal female. Under this paradigm, there should even be a distinction between a biological herm's sex and gender, as well as separate names for each to alleviate confusion. A cis-gendered man is a man who is born male. A cis-gendered herm is a herm who is born as the corresponding gender. And you are technically cis-gendered, going by your SL birthday. :3
Once science produces herm humans and the ability to affordably modify one's sex on more than a cosmetic level, the paradigm will shift back to gender equaling sex. The difference is that the roles of sex in society will be more fluid.
The sex-gender dichotomy exists because our culture needs it to exist, just as we needed the man-woman dichotomy to exist. Affordable gene modifying creates a culture where neither is necessary. This is why herms as a physical sex are a threat to current gender politics. More pronouns and genders get tied to biology. I'm not saying it's ethically or morally right, but it just seems to be the most likely outcome of such a scenario.
I technically fall under the transgender label, but I don't have a constant gender identity. This may make it difficult for me to see it the same way you do, but that's what discussion is for ^^
We're not talking about Chakat-Universe Lore. We're talking about the Real World and how many of us Identify as Herms.
And no, we don't need that dichotomy to exist. It's just what our current culture considers the Norm. Just because something is the normal condition doesn't mean it's necessary. And all throughout history, we see many many examples of the Status Quo getting upset and changed for the better.
As for your statements about the pronouns, I prefer people use the Feminine-Herm set (Shi/Hir/Hirs/Shir) with me. However, you'll never see me trying to Enforce their use. I simply ask people to use them, and if they don't I shrug and move on. People get more respect and recognition from me for respecting my wishes and addressing me as I've asked. I view the ones who do get bent out of shape over someone not using their non-standard pronouns to be highly troublesome, and it comes across as incredibly entitled and spoiled.
You keep making statements about the nature of Cis-gendered individuals, but Cis or not isn't the problem here. You ought to re-read the journal again and try to understand the real issue being discussed.
I SUPPORT OUR HERMS!
I see you're not demanding that other people conform to what you want to be called, only asking. That gets a lot more respect, I think.
Anyway, jesus christ. What's up with the whole PC-speak movement lately? It's seriously getting out of hand and I can't keep up with all the strange new names that pop up like mushrooms after the rain.
this is like how genetic councilors can't call a mutation a "mutation" because people think of xmen and think its bad or a super power
I read through all this as I said I would. I am shaken to my core the utter tone deaf nonsense. I know these people, personally, and the catastrophic damage they were doing, may still be doing [I am looking into it] is just..... absolutely insane.