This is so Kafkaesque.

Huh?

Franz Kafka wrote a story called Metamorphosis where a man woke up as an enormous cockroach. He wrote other stories, but this is the one folks usually refer to.

So what is he trying to say with this comment?

https://lmgtfy.app/?q=kafkaesque

I'm so sorry you believe in a god that would hate you for loving the same sex... you deserve love & I'm sure if there is a god they would want you to be happy.

God doesn't hate me. God loves me very much. Just like being a thief, or being an adulterer, or being a drunkard. To love the things that God hates is to separate yourself from God. If you choose to love your homosexuality, it's you hating God, not the other way around.

Isn't loving yourself an essential part of life?

It is. There is no original biblical canon pre-catholocism that calls for denial of self at this level. And there is no God in ancient christianity that rejected queer people for who we are. Modern christianity has failed miserably and totally at revising itself after catholocism corrupted it. To use Jesus words "Love your neighbor as yourself" We are MEANT to love ourselves and the facets of who we are down to sexuality, and why wouldnt we be? Divinity is not static. The facets are infinite.

Are you implying that the bible has no examples of rules? Because the 10 commandments is a perfect refutation of this. A reason for Sodom and Gomorrah destruction was for their sexual immorality. You can't quote Jesus as an example of what he promotes, then throw out the rest of the bible at your convenience. Loving one's self never meant to accept your lusts and give in to them. Divinity has clear and set rules. And these are given to us in the word of God.

[Leviticus 18:22] Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
[Romans 1:27] In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Just to name several passages on homosexuality. The burden of proof is actually on you to provide passages in the bible that promote or even condone homosexuality.

Where exactly did I imply there are no rules/the bible doesnt have any? Lmao? I DID imply that morality is extremely messy, and is rarely clear cut. I also implied that you are choosing self deprecation which is not actually required of you. Sodom happened because they were evil to each other. Theres a LOT of reasons why that story went down. Sexual immorality, namely rape, is ONE reason why. Not homosexuality. And again; Im not addressing mistranslated bible thumper verses that arent actually talking about us, but rather pedophiles and the rampant prostitution of the day.

I find the attempts to say that antiquity were fine with this or that thing to be a bit strange: the Bible is the story of man's ongoing development in understanding God - the Genesis account lifted and adapted from the Sumerian Enki/Ninti story, the four voices woven together into the Pentateuch, the redaction of the golden calf into the Sinai/Horeb accounts to denigrate the northern kingdoms' version of the cult, the judges and prophets, the Maccabees, and even with the change in understanding of Christ's divinity from 'God has made this man both lord and Christ' immediately after the crucifixion, to the dove/adoption narrative after the baptism, to the Bethlehem narrative, to being the Logos from before the beginning and continuing through to the early church's struggles with Arianism and the Trinitarian doctrine.

I don't see what's wrong with saying 'yup, some of the ancient cultures were against homosexuality too, but we're more enlightened now'. We don't try to deny Abraham almost sacrificing his son, or the Jews annihilating the various tribes. Ancient Rome, Greece, and Japan were happy with pederasty, today we're not.

Personally I think someone or a bunch of people down the line rewrote things to make it suit their ideology. That's what happened with a lot of religions; rewrite the text so that the people or something you don't like becomes wrong and give your followers and reap the rewards. I guess it does show people do hunger for power.

I for one can't fathom the idea of an all powerful supreme being or beings. I personally am science minded or that if such beings existed, they wouldn't care about puny specks like us. Kind of like what Lovecraft's creations. Minus the problematic stuff.

Just because a multitude of other religions were false, does not discount the Truth of the reality of the Bible. Just like flat-earth doesn't discount sphere-earth.

the fact that God is above the thing he created, being all of this universe, would mean we are simply incapable of fathoming him. The existence of science does not refute God, as I explained before. Who are you to say what God would or wouldn't care about?

Well that's a claim that would require at least some evidence. For the vast majority of the history of Christianity, they were going against the status quo. The Church has suffered greatly, being hunted and put to death because the prevailing societies reviled their doctrine. Just like now! I know I certainly am suffering lesser forms of persecution for professing my love and devotion for God in a place that is majority LGBT. It is certainly not the popular thing to do.

Well that's the nature of God. He exists outside, and above all of his creation. It's impossible to fathom him because he lies outside our realm of... everything! And it's important to note that got IS love. he loves all of his creation. He is the Father. And a perfect, loving father would care about all of his children. A god who is too big to notice even the smallest of atoms is not a god who is omniscient.

There's plenty of theories, especially about Christianity's view on homosexuality, that it was most certainly tampered with. There's plenty of evidence that the one line about lying in bed with another man used to refer to pedophilia, not homosexuality. Convenient considering the ongoing history with the faith's covering up and defense of its own priests committing such an act.

The greatest fallacious argument I see at Christianity is because members have committed sins that the doctrine itself is at fault, rather than the individuals. When the doctrine itself has commandments against such actions. Even worse is to have the sins of catholic priests attributed to Christ when Catholicism is a false doctrine and the papacy closer to that of the antichrist. An extra insult because the Catholic church was responsible for putting many Christians who held the belief that Jesus Christ as the ultimate authority (Even over the pope) to death! Even by your word, the bible would condemn pedophelia, and I don't have to tell you that the bible condemns lying. The bible is faultless.

God never gives a command that he expects us to follow and doesn't also provide multiple forms of confirmation of said command within his word. So there isn't just 1 passage which condemns homosexuality within the Bible.
Romans 1:27, Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13,1 Timothy 1:8-11,Hebrews 13:1-5,Romans 1:26-28,Jude 1:5-8, and a plethora of other verses strengthen God's negative view on Homosexuality. That God finds it unnatural ,depraved, shameful, detestable, immoral. Not a single good word used to describe it! and on the flipside, I implore you to find a single example of God blessing the sexual relationship of 2 men, or 2 women, like he does many, many times with a man and a woman. I assure you that you will find none.

If you love someone you will do what you can to help them be better. Not accepting their faults. Like a parent and child. A good parent will help refine the child and teach them instead of let them go on as they are, without knowledge.

Accepting yourself is about being honest about who you are and how you came to be like that. Loving yourself is about helping yourself to be the best you can be. There's no contradiction between loving yourself but deciding that something needs to change: loving yourself is often the very motivation for that. Loving yourself isn't the same as unquestioning complacency.

I lost 45 lbs over the past few months *because* I love myself (and my family) too much to suffer (and make them suffer) the risks and consequences of obesity. Now I'm merely a bit overweight. :)

Sounds like a pretty tall order, good luck dude. Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas!

A tall, difficult order. But it gets easier with time. And it's well-worth it. But it will always be impossible if you make your decision for it to be.
Compared to the easy decision of being held captive to your lusts, which amounts to nothing. And the rejection of God will lead to hell.

Oh believe me I've accepted that! Don't worry about where I'm going, I wish you peace and happiness anyway. Tell God I said hi when you get there!

I still worry for you, because I love you... If I didn't love you I wouldn't consider it worth my time to talk about this.
And everyone gets to see God, because everyone will be judged.

Appreciate it! Thanks Jar. I'm also sorry to see so many folks here trying to change your mind. I have a lot of reverence towards personal choice in how to live one's life happily, so just as I've decided to indulge in what Earthly life has to offer I think you deserve to handle your sexuality in the way you feel most comfortable without getting harassed for it. It's a really interesting topic to me so feel free to hit me up if you want to share further thoughts, just don't expect me to change my mind either. All the best dude!

To completely fair, I made this post in the hopes of changing other people's minds. It wouldn't be right of me not to take their points of view into consideration. I don't consider it harassment. But it can become frustrating if I'm talking to someone who's already made their mind up and refuses to budge however I may refute their arguments. I am actually open to changing my mind if anyone produces any greater evidence to what I know to being wrong, and a better alternative, but I have not seen any, nor has anyone produced any. I do wish you the best too, though. I thank you for being receptive.

Merry Christmas and blessings in the new year, chief.

Same to you! Merry Christmas!

This is your choice, your path, no matter if they disagree on what you said, I'll respect you as well as I'm happy to have your beliefs. Merry Christmas man !

Thank you Meza. I am just pleading with everyone. But ultimately it's their own choice and I will accept that, too. I still love you very much. Merry Christmas!

Joshua 24:15
As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.

It's a tough life for us all. Living for God or not. Nobody is perfect. But that's why it's so beautiful that Jesus Christ came down as a child, born into flesh just like us, teaching the love he has for us. When others hated him, yelled at him, he didn't attack them. He simply walked away.

He still loved the sinners. And that taught me a bunch. I still love everyone nor hold a hate for anyone. I don't love sin but I love the sinner, just like Jesus did. He came and died for our sins, even for a wretched soul like me. Even when I was a sinner. He rose up again so we may rise up again.

There's a lot to talk about so hey, if you need someone who believes in Jesus, I can maybe help. I've been born and raised in the church.

Merry Christmas to everyone, whether you believe or not! I hope you have a wonderful Christmas! <3

I know what you meant, but Jesus didn't simply walk away. He took all of their abuse and torment and walked himself up the hill with his cross. He had such a heart for his enemies that he prayed for God to have mercy on them as they were putting him to death! What an example of love.

I don't love everyone. That's such a difficult thing to do, but I am trying. Always asking God for direction and strength and obedience to do the things he asks of me. And even though I've accepted Jesus into my heart, I still sin regularly. And the closer I get to God the more I learn how imperfect I really am. And still he loves me and wants to be with me. I truly am blessed to have a Father who wants me.

And thanks, Sodapop. :)

Sure thing buddy, nah God be with you this season and for the rest of your journey. Nothing in this world can separate you from the love of God.

Have a good one and God bless, brother.

it's true. I have my eternal hope. :) And you know the same!

God bless!

I don't know nor follow you but I am glad to see you discover your faith especially when exposed to this site. It's so joyous to see fellow siblings in Christ profess their faith, I hope you have a very Merry Christmas!

Thank you, and Merry Christmas!

Same sex love is not a lie nor a sin. My love for another man got me through some of the worst times in my life. It saved me from committing suicide when the pain of near constant repression and denial about what I am made me feel like I was drowning in misery.

I don't know you, but from my own human experience I can tell you've chosen to live this way because it's easier to condemn the aspects of yourself that you (and others) don't like, rather than acknowledge them as a part of you. Not WHO YOU ARE, but a single PART. How you act on your own feelings is you're business, no one can force you to love yourself (in the true seance of the words). But know, that there are other ways for you to temper your bad habits and live a fulfilling life. Their just not as "simple".

The freedom to love another man and the peace of mind in knowing that you aren't an incubator of sin is a high price to pay in exchange for feeling comfortable with yourself. I don't hate or dislike you for what you're doing, because then I'd have to hate myself. But I do feel bad for you. Should you ever decide to go back on these words, I won't judge you. You deserve to know peace of mind and the happiness of finding and nurturing true love.

Merry Christmas.

scientifically speaking, Sex does have a purpose and that is to procreate. There's absolutely no purpose for intercourse between 2 same-sex individuals. A god who is perfect and all-knowing would never create something without a purpose. We have been told what God desires in his Word, but if you find adhering to his command then you're just rejecting God. And God loves you so much that he will allow you to go through with that decision, even if it means eternal separation from him. God will ultimately give you what you want in the end. If you reject him, you get an existence devoid of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

And you are correct, you don't know me. Your reasoning for me is way off. I don't choose this because it's easier. In fact it's FAR harder. To face the rejection of my church and family, coming out as attracted to men, then facing the rejection of all the friends I've made here, coming out as dedicated to God. All because I desire to live righteously and have a future with God.

The human heart is evil and you should always be trying to better yourself. I am not so weak as to compromise with my shortcomings. It would be the same if I had a drinking problem, was a thief, a rapist or a murderer. If I want to better myself I cannot allow myself to just keep those aspects as a part of me. They gotta go. And there is no better standard of righteousness to live by than that provided by God, who created Truth.

Don't feel bad for me. Because I have a bright future, an eternity beyond this extremely short time on Earth, of hope and goodness when I will be in the presence of the Father. And no, I do not "deserve" any of those things. It would only be by the grace of God if I were to receive them. They are gifts and worthy of thanks. Not something deserved simply by existing.

Merry Christmas to you, too.

but if you find adhering to his command too inconvenient as to reject it, then you're just rejecting God.*

Speaking as an actual graduated scientist: Biologically/"scientifically" speaking sex is incredibly varied and many animals partake in it for fun and with same sex partners. This is all over every species strata that exists on planet earth, including humans. Sex' only purpose is not breeding and baby making. It was made for us to enjoy with someone we love *whoever* that may be, male or female. Even our bodies nervous systems and major pleasure centers are positioned in EXACT ways to receive pleasure from someone regardless of their gender. Catholocism demonized sex and our bodies and taught false understandings of sexuality. God does not hate sex, and is not so simplistic or static to limit love. I am sorry people have rejected you, but there is a better way than shutting yourself off and choosing a version of divinity that is the furthest thing from who Jesus actually was.

We aren't "many animals". We are humans. And we have been given a guidebook on how to conduct ourselves concerning sexual activity in the bible. The act of sex might be varied, but its purposes are not. I never said God hated sex. But he has guidelines for how they are to be conducted. Just like anything else in the world, there are rules. I'm sorry but Jesus was no sexual deviant. He was always obedient to the word of God.

What exactly makes The Bible the word of God? Cause last I checked, it was written by people...who if this is the word of God, means God himself would have had to communicate with them.

But God, an almighty being with limitless power to create and destroy worlds and species, who is also apparently capable of communicating ideas to people to write down....couldn't just do that for you?

You can't even claim that it's "testing the faith" and whatnot because for The Bible to exist and be legitimate in the first place and for the prophet's words to ring true that means God would've given them an easy pass because they have the luxury of just "knowing" God is real. And if you know something to be true, then believing in it isn't even faith.

Don't you think it's rather convenient that The Bible shits on a bunch of things that lowered survivability rates even though God is literally an eternal being that would have no real reason to care about people living as long as possible?

Don't you think it's rather convenient the The Bible discourages you ever having so much as a thought outside of what it tells you is true?

Theory to chew on: The Bible is really just a product of Satan wanting to keep people stifled and scared and be outright hateful to the very traits that God gave us to be individuals.

Would be quite a plot twist, right? Truly a move fitting of the "one true deceiver."

God, being omnipotent, is more powerful than the flaws of the humans he tasked to write his Word. God is omniscient and if his word was relayed in a way he didn't like, he wouldn't have it written.

If God beamed everything he wanted us to do directly in to our head then there would be no way to develop faith. There would be no choice to believe him because there would be no doubt. God is also sentient/sapient and makes decisions for himself who he does and doesn't want to speak to.

Just because knowing something comes easier to some than others doesn't mean faith was not a factor. To believe something will remain a constant is having faith that it will. You don't know the future.

"Don't you think it's rather convenient that the rules God set line up with reality?" That's what it means to be the creator of all things. You happen to know how things work. It isn't for us to know the reasons why God does what he does. Any answers he reveals to us are gifts, not rights.

God made us and know how we are. He gave us free will to do as we wish within the capabilities he also gave us. He has presented a guide on how to live a righteous life while allowing us the decision to do everything but live righteous. The Bible is simply letting you know what will happen as a result. Do whatever you want. You aren't saved by trying to live a perfect life, because all of us have failed that, having sinned and earned eternal damnation for ourselves. We're saved by admitting the truth. That we are sinners in need of a savior, and that Jesus is that savior, having atoned for our sins.

I warn you not to test God. Giving into every debased desire your heart could muster. To live a life of fornication, idolatry, adulatory, homosexuality, abusing others, thievery, covetousness, drunkeness, reviling, or extortion and see how empty and destroyed you become. Then come back and tell me how God didn't know what he was talking about. Meanwhile, these lifestyles are actually all the things Satan would love for us to give into because he hates us to our very core and would love to see us destroyed.

I will stop you at line one, because that's objectively proven wrong by the fact the Bible was 1. put together over a long course of time and 2. has explicitly changed its conveyed messages multiple times throughout history (conveniently always lining up with a the status quo of the era, hmm)

And he beamed it into the head of the prophets, so clearly he's not that against it. There's people who devote their entire lives to "God" and never get a message.

And I think you missed the point of the "isn't it convenient?" bit. What I'm getting at is that the messages the Bible promotes are all things that better serve the hierarchies and standards of human values, not what an omniscient and eternal deity would value. Why would God care if you lived 25 years or 60 years when time essentially does not exist for him? Caring about all these things that keep you alive like refraining from sleeping around due to STDs and refraining from eating pork because you'll get sick seem like very "human" issues.

And I'm not testing God. I also don't believe God is testing us. Believing that anything involving expression, individuality, making mistakes (and subsequently, potentially learning from them), is intrinsic to the dude who hates us is uh...pretty ass backwards my dude.

God made you gay. It's an intrinsic part of your experience that quite objectively does not debilitate you or the people around you. It's not like the fire mate, the only punishment received from homosexuality in of itself is based in the fear and hatred of you and those around you.

You having sex with a man does not undermine the ability of others to bear children. STDs are not innate to homosexuality.

Think of it in terms of some other harmless behavior. Imagine if every time you pet a dog, people screamed at you and threatened to kill you and told you it was evil to pet dogs.

When you pet the dog...nothing particularly negative happens in regards to you and the dog's dynamic. The dog may potentially bite you, or it may have parasites, but that's not an intrinsic element of you petting a dog.

But if people sit there and scream it's evil at you for petting the dog for years on end, eventually it starts to feel like petting the dog is bad. But the reality is, the only harmful byproduct most of the time is the fact that people are tearing you down over it.

Humans made this idea of persecuting and judging those who operated outside their beliefs, not God. To believe God is like this himself is to believe in a very petty God. If a petty, tantrum-throwing deity is what floats your boat, cool beans. But probably at the very least acknowledge that equating balls touching to literal murder is, in fact, petty.

God resides outside of time and gives us knowledge at the times he deems necessary. God thought it wise not to give Moses the story of Jesus, but instead the 10 commandments. The wisdom and knowledge almost never lines up with the status quo of the time. Most of the time the people God use are so resistant to his commands because they go AGAINST the status quo of the current society! haha! Even now, I am going against the status quo of the LGBT by sharing Christ.

The prophets had already developed their faith so greatly that God was able to beam information into their heads. God thought it wise to pick-and-choose how he uses people instead of using everyone in the same manner. God DID create us all uniquely, after all.

Because God is a God of perfect love.. Why would you ask father who loves his children why would he care if their children suffer unnecessarily or die off early? God cares about you because he invested the time to create you. He stitched you together in your mother's womb. Being that God resides outside time, he knew from the very creation of our universe that he would make you. Everything. Why would he not want everything that he's made to thrive?

If God says something is right, or wrong, and in unbelief you defiantly do those things, you are testing God. God is always testing us. He has a vested interest in refining us and making us better. Huh? God doesn't hate us. God loves us from the bottom of his heart.

God didn't make me gay. God may have made me in a way that I'm more susceptible to being attracted to men, but we all have our lusts that we must deny. Just like a drunkard, or a druggie, or a thief, or a slanderer, etc. Expressing homosexuality is not intrinsic to me, or to anyone, as it is a choice that you can deny.

homosexual intercourse will never result in offspring. The only way gay couple can have a child is to take it away from a straight one. God never intended for us to be homosexual and it's so evident in our biology. Homosexual sex has a higher rate of HIV/AIDs. Just ask the 70's lol

You being ignorant of the side-effects of an action does not make it harmless. The greater effects of our sins may only be known after we leave Earth, but you'd be a fool to test God.

God never cursed petting dogs. In fact, he'd be far happier had you devoted your life to petting dogs instead of having sex with men. I don't care if people scream at me for petting a dog if God's happy. Thankfully God is timeless and unchanging and his word never contradicts itself. He doesn't go with what's cool and current. So petting dogs will not be on his (relatively small) list of things not to do.

By what standard are you telling me what God did or did not make? God is longsuffering and ever-patient. It is not petty of a parent to set rules for a child to abide by. And it isn't petty of a parent to discipline the child when they break those rules. God doesn't literally murder you for sinning... Look at you. You're still here, alive.

Won't bother replying to all of this, but:

1) Wow, dat homophobia though, dude. "A gay couple can only have a child by taking it from a straight one."

Allow me to point out the 400,000+ children in the foster care system in the U.S. alone. Allow me to point out that all of them in some way or another have already been lost to the straight couple that created them.

Allow me to point out how there's tons of gay couples (and straight couples, for that matter) who...do not want kids.

The amount of scenarios where a gay couple is taking a child away from a straight "couple" is limited to surrogates and...I'm sure a couple scenarios where they tried abducting a kid, but I think it's safe to say that's likely somewhat rare.

I think it's worth noting here that God very well could have intended for non-child-bearing couples to be the ones to provide a family to children who have lost theirs. Certainly not a Biblical notion, but I mean, we've already established my feelings on The Bible.

2) The dog petting thing is an example. My point is that the people writing the Bible could have literally wrote down that anything is a sin (the particular example being petting dogs) and said that you will only know the side effects after you leave Earth, meaning that to pet a dog would be "testing God."

Neither of us has more basis of what is truly Godly. The Bible quite frankly has no more basis of truth than a "weak and deceiving heart". When it comes down to it, when both of us say "this is true" the only thing to substantiate our claim is "because I believe this to be true".

The difference in our views, however, is yours is riddled with inconsistencies that you either choose to ignore or write off as "only God understands" or "It's the devil's work". The whole Adam and Eve being naked thing? Being ashamed of the bodies that God clearly had no issue with them showing the entirety of their stay in Eden? If your God is a lawful God that decided what is good and evil from the dawn of existence...why let his children unknowingly "sin" by walking around naked if it was wrong from the getgo?

It's a small detail, but happens right at the beginning and really sets quite the tone of clear indications that the Bible is more about the shame and guilt of man than it is the judgement of God.

My idea of God isn't without inconsistencies I'm sure, but if one is pointed out then I address it as a matter of knowing God better, not disowning responsibility for my faith for the sake of upholding it. It's my job to better know how to communicate Gods will, not absolve myself of the responsibility by claiming "there's a shitty book full on inconsistencies and if it seems wrong that's because #faith".

And I'd argue it's far better for one's mental health to not believe their deity is tallying up their sins and they'll be denied love if they don't do things exactly as was ordered. I'm all about boundaries when it comes to loving someone, but "do this long list of things I want and THEN you can come to my house" is a pretty classic leverage and blackmail abusive relationship.

I think God gave you a life because he wants you to live a life. I don't think it's a "test", he gave us sensation and desire and struggles and pain and we're supposed to feel all of it. Supposed to "sin", and subsequently, supposed to learn. I don't think he expects us to go about it a certain way, I think no matter what the road always leads back to him. The free will is in how we choose to wander and stumble and come to know him, even if we don't call him "God". Self-discovery is an important part of appreciating what God has made in you, exploration is an important part of appreciating the world that was given to us.

I genuinely hope you develop a relationship with God that doesn't entail you "waiting to find fulfillment until after you die", because the God I know, at least, would be hurting to see you stifle your ability to love yourself and others. And I still believe you'll be with him afterwards even if you go your whole life like this, because if this is the struggle you're meant to deal with, then you will, and I don't think God's going to snub you over not resolving the issue within the very tiny constraint of your mortality.

1. Go ahead and deny science and get offended that gay couples cannot produce offspring. Fact of the matter is, the only way a gay couple can have a child is if a sperm ensiminates an egg. And a male+male, or female+female only has half of the equation. Gay couples are genetic dead ends unless you go outside that relationship. God never intended for homosexuality and his system speaks of this.

2. My point is that they didn't just write down "anything". They wrote down what God wanted them to write down. What IS in the bible is God's opinion on homosexuality, while not having an opinion on petting (to my knowledge.) So it's okay. You can't use an example outside of the Bible as a hypothetical of what God intends because God never said it.

I have a basis of what God truly wants and he has presented it to us in the Bible. It's you who rejects the bible and therefore has no basis. You're projecting onto me your own deficiencies. the bible proves its validity through speaking about events of the future and having those events come about, proving that the author has power that resides outside of time. No other religion comes close to such a feat. Not even modern science is capable of such a feat. Meanwhile you simply reject the bible and the truth it holds because it says you shouldn't do things you want to do.

Sometimes I just ignore a comment you make because it goes nowhere, like the whole adam and eve thing. While I may have my flaws because my understanding isn't complete, The bible does not. And I have so much faith in this stance that I am unafraid of you trying to find any out so that I can address them. Adam and Eve were ashamed of their bodies because of the knowledge they had acquired. God had no shame in the bodies he created for them. being naked was never a sin and God never addressed their nakedness as a reason they were kicked out. They were kicked out because they disobeyed God's command not to eat the fruit, THEN they committed deceit in trying to hide from him.

Your interpretation of the events are wrong, and therefore the messages you glean from them are wrong also. It was man who had the shame. God never said they should be ashamed of anything.

I don't understand what you're trying to insinuate. I am not absolving responsibility or making excuses. I'm addressing every point to the best of my ability. And there's reasoning behind the things I know to be true. You're being rather petty and mean-spirited for no reason. I don't even know how to respond to that last comment...

Knowing that everything you do matters makes you want to do better. Knowing that the world is truly just in the end makes one less resentful. I pity the atheist who lives in a hopeless world where they are not loved and everything is a result of (EXTREMELY) organized chaos. Such a mindset breeds nihilism and would convince a person that suicide is a reasonable escape.

this will be the third time me explaining this to you. ultimately it's our own choice what we want and then God reciprocates that decision. if you reject God, then he will reject you. If you accept God, then he will accept you. You get what you give, because God is a God of justice. You don't get to be with God by obeying all of his laws. You get to heaven simply by believing in Him and his Son. But if you do the things he doesn't like he still has to spank you, but you still get to be with him in Heaven. I still sin, even though I've accepted God into my heart. If I were not to repent from these things, I'd be spanked. But imagine thinking justice to be "blackmail". You must really hate laws and statutes. Imagine murdering someone then getting annoyed you can't freely walk around in public after you get caught, blaming the judge who sentenced you to prison for your own actions. Astounding.

By what standard are you making assumptions about God? When you reject his Word. You can certainly ignore all the promptings and all the examples of others and just try everything to gain all experiences, but it's been done before and I choose to be wise and learn from others. You aught to read Proverbs. King Solomon has done everything under the sun but it all amounts to vanity. If anything I hope and pray that you get everything you've ever wanted in life and find out it's all meaningless. Vanity. You have a Jesus-shaped hole in your heart and everything on Earth is incapable of filling it. Despite being so advanced in technology, having every ease and convenience at our finger tips, our nation is the most depressed.

You don't even know God. To God, a 1,000 years is as a day, and a day is as 1,000 years. Once we enter into eternity, our understanding of time will change and we will start seeing a year as a day, 10 years as a day, 100 years as a day. And I'm sure there will be many metamorphosis throughout, just like Earth>Heaven. With all this in mind, the miniscule time spent being obedient here on Earth, for the 100,000 years of joy ,happiness, excitement, love in God's presence is absolutely nothing. If I suffer at all for my adherence to God's word, then God, being just, would make it well worth my sacrifice.

1. Okay well you literally just totally ignored the basis of what I presented to you. If a child is orphaned or abandoned...how exactly is gay couple "taking" them from straight parents? Your presentation is wholly intellectually dishonest. The only way the children are accessible to gay people is if the straight people willingly give them away or die.

2. -I present examples outside of The Bible because if the rule was consistent, then it would apply across everything.

-I will correct you: The Adam and Eve hole in The Bible doesn't go anywhere you want to go.

And Ohoho dood, know your own cited source. [Genesis 3:10-11] "He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.” And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”

So, to be clear here, Adam feels shame over his nakedness, which God did not intend for him to be aware of/care about. Yet later in The Bible:

[Exodus 28:42] "And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:"

There's multiple parts mentioning nakedness and covering one's body, but I pick this one because it specifically mentions breeches and specifies the covering of ones genitals, meaning that the clothing wasn't intended for protection from harsh conditions like the clothing of skins that God made for Adam and Eve when they left the garden (which I give the benefit of the doubt on and assume he was giving them some protection as they last the safe paradise).

And you say my interpretation is wrong but therein lies the issue...would God's word be so subject to interpretation? And so obscenely full of contradictions?

Let's take a simpler one: Free will. And let's combine it with another concept: God's plan and omniscience.

Free will and omniscience are literally outright incompatible. If God knows everything and has a plan for us, then that means every move we make is preordained. It means he's essentially decided who will and will not make it into heaven already, meaning nothing you do actually matters.

Your decision to become functionally eunic? By your book, he already knew you'd do that, meaning you never really had a choice in the first place.

If your idea of God contradicts itself, it's not a "perfect" God, and if your source material is full of contradictions, that's probably because it was a bunch of perfectly fallible humans writing it.

- Since I'd prefer not to drag this out, I'll leave it at an answer to your "what standards" question. The standards I make about the assumptions about God from are born from one key element: That he made us in his image.

I believe God is already in me and in everyone around me, and showing love to people, including myself, is how I worship him. It's important for me to love myself and what God has made in order to appreciate all that was given to us. I don't believe in a God that views himself as above us, and I think constantly looking up and hoping we're doing the right think is just ignoring how accessible he really is.

As an artist maybe a good way to frame it is how there's a bit of you in everything you make. Seeing as God made everything, he's in everything, and by extension everything is worth appreciating and showing love to.

And the only way I think one can really disrespect God is deny the self and aspects of the world around you. I think that if Satan represents anything, it's shame, death, destruction, things that have been created by God falling apart.

And even then, that is worth appreciating, because God takes the ashes Satan makes and forges new life, new connections, growth, and eternity. God also has given us the power to do that ourselves.

The idea of waiting for an afterlife is silly to me because God has already given us so much in life. We have a lot more power and the traits he instilled in us are all part of this process of destruction and recreation as we become a part of eternity with him.

Talking to you has become such a stressful, uninteresting task. Such a mean-spirited, petty person. But out of respect I will answer your fallacious arguments.

1. however the gays acquire the child is wholly irrelevant to the fact that they did not, and cannot produce one themselves, and THAT is the point. The point is that God never intended for gay sex, and there is no biological benefit to it as proof.

2. you create a rule for yourself that is in no-way in line with the will of God, then use it as a false example of a rule of God to discredit him. Talk about intellectually dishonest.

- God sets up new rules after Adam ate the apple because the very nature of Man had changed. Before Adam ate the apple, God never needed to tell Adam to not murder or not steal or not have sex with Men.

If you're purposely being obtuse then of course you will end up with an interpretation that doesn't fall in line with God's Word. Thankfully God often gives multiple examples throughout the bible for any certain thing so we can verify what it is he had meant.

I had this conversation with another fellow and it was so silly it blew my mind.
If you watch a prerecorded video of a football game that you've seen once before, do the players not have free will when they made the decisions in the video? Of course they did. And that's how God views us from outside time. I still have free will to choose to follow the will of God or not. But just because God knows the future of this present moment does not mean I don't have free will.

There's no contradictions within the bible. There only contradictions with interpretations of the bible. Like your interpretation.

Oh, so you decide to believe a single statement coming from the bible but all the rest of it is nonsense? You have created a god of your own within your own head to follow. because the standards of the actual God were not to your liking. An idol. Not even I know what it truly means to be made in God's "image". I have never seen God and do not know what his image pertains to.

Our nation is not long, because God's patience is waning. The Great Tribulation is upon us. You stay here on Earth, worshiping that demon you so love and suffer the consequences. Perhaps in heaven, before your judgement, God will explain things to you.

"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." How foolish you will be on that day. I am frustrated and fed up with you, but out of love do I try to convince you to the truth. but your heart is made up and I think I will actually weep for you.

We are sentient animals capable of reason and considering morality. This "guidebook" is not infallible and was written by fallible humans trying to glimpse divinity who then proceeded to butcher the book and its intents over centuries of time to control and oppress others. Sex is not this monolithic concept the bible wraps up in a singular box of "do's and donts." Even if it was; theres no universe where I absolutely trust a random old man's words that have been translated through multiple languages often incorrectly over two millennia lmao. You do you. But never once think there isnt another way, and less oppressive faith.

"This guidebook is not infallible" - Citation needed.
"Proceeded to butcher the book and its intents" - Citation needed.
The bible definitely does give us how to conduct sex in a manner that is pleasing to God, and manners that are not.
You can deny science and pretend bleach isn't harmful to the body just because you like the taste. You can ignore all the warnings labels for whatever reason you want. But there is still the harsh reality of the consequences for this action.

The age of a truth doesn't invalidate it. The fact that it can withstand the tests of time only add credence to it. The concept of physics is pretty old now, huh. Would you go jumping off a building to see if still works?

Yeah so. "God told me so" isnt a citation, or proof of concept whatsoever bb. And neither is quoting sections of scripture that are neck deep in translation/context errors. Its literally common historical/linguistic knowledge that the bible has been through multiple versions, translations, etc and not come out the same as a result of this. Use. The. Internet. I am not obligated to do basic research FOR you. And Im not the one denying science (big lol) You are. It is accepted modern science that homosexuality is a normative thing. Its also accepted that the bible indeed has not stood the test of time. But again, if your faith is weak enough to require a perfect version of the bible to survive than nobody can help you least of all a tiny, petty version of divinity that cares whether or not my penis is in a man.

I have never cited "God told me so"...
Astounding... You're just giving me the run-around, huh. What a fruitless conversation. Everything is a translation/context error but you are wholly incapable of proving any proof or citation. You ARE obliged to provide proof to your statements if you want to convince anyone of anything. The burden of proof is on you to prove your stance, not me. haha! You're just intellectually lazy. If the bible was false and did not stand the test of time then it would be wholly irrelevant to us, like the Greek Pantheon. yet here it still is, alive and well. God is timeless, and so is his word. Which is why it can speak so confidently about future events, unlike any other religious doctrine.

You have become incoherent.

Youre spouting religious dogma with no basis in modern science or modern translation, while repeating christianese echo chamber nonsense that most of the world doesnt even believe? I dont owe you crap LMAO? My job isnt to convince people who are already lost to their own denial. Its to demonstrate to others that what you are touting is seen as complete nonsense to the secular world, AND to people with faith who reject the modern church for its overwhelming failure to society. If people actually looking for the truth want me to pull out links and EDU references they can DM me. Grandstand at someone whose uneducated and ignorant and have a nice life. Time to mute.

Jesus speaks of a parable. "There was once a man who went out to sow. In his sowing some of the seeds fell by the road-side and the birds swooped down and gobbled them up. Some fell on stony patches where they had very little soil. They sprang up quickly in the shallow soil, but when the sun came up they were scorched by the heat and withered away because they had no roots. Some seeds fell among thorn-bushes and the thorns grew up and choked the life out of them. But some fell on good soil and produced a crop—some a hundred times what had been sown, some sixty and some thirty times."
"Now listen to the parable of the sower. When a man hears the message of the kingdom and does not grasp it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is like the seed sown by the road-side."

You are this evil one. You come to steal and destroy the Truth that others may acquire. You are wholly uninterested in edifying anyone, least yourself. Turn from your ways, because if not God has a terrible curse for you. Do keep in mind that it was you who came to my journal.

"sex has a purpose and it is to procreate." Okay let's break this down a bit:

A "purpose" is entirely subjective. There's all sorts of things that have no intrinsic value that we assign value to, ESPECIALLY in terms of religion. A bible is literally paper. Made from a tree. The trees "purpose" if we're applying logic of how you're talking about sex is "The trees purpose is to live and survive and produce oxygen as part of a natural cycle to keep itself and the creatures around it alive in a symbiotic manner."

The process of cutting down a tree to print a Bible is robbing the tree of its living existence to grant it a new purpose, giving you a message that gives you some sort of comfort and meaning as you go through life. This practice in of itself is an example of -giving- something a new purpose and meaning.

This same approach can be applied to nearly anything, including sex. Sex has a baseline function of creating offspring, but we as humans have also assigned value to it as pleasurable and bond-forming.

Also may as well toss this on the pile: What exactly makes your attraction to a man different from a man attracted to an infertile woman? Or elderly couples who have sex long after the womb hath run barren? By your reasoning here, them having sex despite the knowledge they can't bear children is improper.

No matter how many times we mess up there will be forgiveness. His love is what keeps me goin! Merry Christmas!

I truly want to come to a point where I do not transgress against Him any more. I want the Father's decision to have his son die for my sins to be worth it to him. And because Jesus died for ALL my sins, if I were to continue sinning, it would just add to the long list of things Jesus, the love of my life, suffered for.

I hope you find solace in your 'faith'

Nothing wrong with having personal standards to get into heaven. It is His house after all. Just wish you didn’t get punished for not being allowed in. Like getting a chance to restart would be cool.

He/They dont. "Hell" doesnt exist in Judaism, and was bastardized into christianity by a corrupt catholic church; who ALSO mistranslated the bible and demonized queer people despite no historical or linguistic evidence to indicate any rejection of queer people before Catholocism. Both homophobia and hell are falsehoods that ancient christian canon never had. You and I are not rejected for queerness.

Jesus spoke about hell more than anyone else in the bible combined. A place for people who reject God in favor of their own way. Devoid of goodness, righteousness, holiness, and all of the things that God is the source of.
[Matt 5:29] "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell."

Pretty much every time you see the word "hell" or "hades" in the bible its actually Abyss or Sheol. A place of nothing. There is a penalty. You burn (from an eternal fire, as in the fire is eternal not you) into nothingness. Not eternal burning. That concept comes from greece and rome. Not Judaism, or what becomes christianity. Jesus talks about sheol the great abyss of nothing. It is to cease to exist. Not burn forever. But again this requires the understanding that the modern bible is a mess of errors. And the faith to know divinity doesn't need a perfect book to show truth.

This. The idea of Hell existing at all is completely contrary to the idea of God loving us, or contrary to God being anything but astonishingly petty and spiteful. It astounds me that people manage to rationalize "Yes an eternal being will punish you for eternity based on how you acted for a minuscule number of years."

"Oh also his love his endless."

?????

The whole Jesus thing really adds to the pile

"Yes I am literally God and I make the rules and decide exactly how the world works but I had to torture and murder a super cool dude to decide you don't need to slaughter animals for me anymore."

??????????

I will admit, there are many things I do not know, and I would like to ask God about. But those questions are not reason to reject God, but to appeal to him.

A parent loves their child. There are repercussions to a child acting out. They get spanked. Just because you don't like the repercussions of your actions, doesn't mean God still doesn't love you, even after you forced his hand. Especially after you've been told right-from-wrong. Hell is you rejecting God, not God sending you there. It's your decision, not his. That's what it means to have free will. God loves you so much that he will not force you to remain in his presence for all eternity when you have chosen otherwise.

If the fire burns when you touch it, then why spank the kid for touching the fire?

Homosexuality has no repercussion that is an innate consequence of homosexuality. You've been told it is wrong without any substantiated reasoning as to why it is wrong, much like the multiple other "sins" in the Bible with no substantial reasoning for why they're a sin, such as cutting one's hair.

If the fire burns when you touch it after being warned not to, then you jump into the fire, why do you blame the parent?

Just because you do not know the consequences of an action doesn't mean there are none. Adam certainly thought he saw no repercussions for eating the apple after God told him not to, but then that was the beginning of The Fall. No, I haven't been told the reason why homosexuality is wrong, but I will have faith in God that he knows what he's talking about. He finds it abhorrent for a reason. I will be obedient now, and later I will ask him in heaven. Life in so, so short. I will not be waiting long.

I'm so glad you bring up that fruit (btw, not an apple) because it's my favorite hole in Biblical logic and it's conveniently right at the beginning.

You ever find it funny how Adam and Eve were walking around that garden naked for lord only knows how long and God never seemed to have an issue with it? But then Satan encourages Eve, and by extension, Adam, to eat the forbidden fruit?

One of the first things that happens after eating that fruit is they rush to cover their bodies, ashamed of their nude state. They'd been nude for the entire time in the garden and God never cared. Why would he? He made those bodies after all.

To me it seems much more...devilish for a person to suddenly become ashamed of their god-given body. And that shame over an innate part of her humanity, her body, didn't happen, ever, until she did what Satan told her to do.

Shame, doubt, and fear are not Godly. Before the original sin, God was totally fine with adam and eve as they were. Realistically, the only thing Adam and Eve had any reason to feel shame was that they consumed the fruit God told them not to.

In my other comment, I mentioned that God naturally had to have created evil in the world. Evil had to be a part of him for it to come into existence, for he made all. What if that fruit was the evil? What if the "knowledge of good and evil" the fruit contained was a part of God that spawned evil? Maybe that's exactly why Satan wanted Eve to taste it.

Before they knew good and evil, adam and eve's relationship with God was perfect and at its closest. Afterwards, they began to feel the shame and fear that, naturally, Satan would want them to do if he hates humankind so much.

This logic applies to your sexuality as well. In my opinion, your sexuality is something so intrinsic to your experience that feeling shame over it is just...well, torture.

And torture has always seemed to me more like a Lucifer thing than a God thing.

The Bible is just a repeat of the forbidden fruit story. Children are happy and full of wonder and are themselves, making plenty of dumb mistakes, but then some external force comes in to tell them "it's not okay to say that", "it's not okay to be that way".

I guess what I'm trying to say is, have fun munching the fruit the devil has a lot to gain from watching you munch on.

I have no doubt that when I am perfected in the presence of the Lord, God will provide me a companion he deems perfect for me. And I will have a way to express my feelings in a way that pleases him.

It takes fire to refine the metal and remove its impurities. You cannot become a better person in any capacity without any discomfort. Some trials are harder than others, but still not impossible. With God, all things are possible.

You have the choice to do that, and at the end of the road, you will see where it leads you.

The exact nature of "The knowledge of Good and Evil" is something beyond my scope. Perhaps ask God for insight.

Well it's less emphasis of "What satan [convinced] her to do" and more "the nature of the fruit she ate which God told her not to."

Again, I don't know what that fruit truly was, or contained. It's fun to speculate, but there simply isn't enough information to draw any conclusions. I will be patient and wait until I see God to ask him. But then again, I have never really been interested in that mystery.

That’s why I really don’t believe in religion because it’s all been tainted by man in some form. The original Abrahamic religions all split off and became entirely different because of the actions of men. Even before that, what we now openly regard as “mythology” (Greeks, Nordic, Egyptian, etc.) were the religions of their day and many came well before even Judaism.

Faith in modernity is something you need to find for yourself. Always ask questions, and look for who is compassionate to all regardless of their sexuality, gender, race, etc. Ignore those who value dogma over intent and purpose, regardless of the religion they come from. Dogma doesnt matter. People do. You dont need organized religion of any kind to find faith for yourself if you want it.

I am compassionate for the now, yes. We on Earth have enough to deal with in our short time here than to make each others lives miserable just to appeal to a God whose entire teachings have been bastardized and rewritten by others repeatedly. At this point you cant be certain of anything, so just be kind to your fellow man as best you can and treat others with fairness and understanding.

You get punished for stealing. You get punished for lying. You get punished for murder. Life isn't worse for refraining from these things, even if you're tempted in to doing them, and the reward for not doing them FAR outweighs any "benefit" of doing them. Same is for having sex with things God never intended you to have sex with.

Well I guess the issue lies in that it’s all lumped together in the same pool with the same extreme level of punishment. But yeah, again God can choose to do what He wants as the creator. I just think, in His infinite wisdom, there’s gotta be a better way.

There are many degrees of hell. It's not all just the same. God is a god of justice, and he gives us according to what we deserve.
Jesus tells Pilate there is one who has committed greater sin than the sin Pilate was committing. And thus, Pilate would be getting a lesser sentence than that of his superior.

If you have a better way than that of omniscient God, who created and maintains all things, then... I suggest you keep it to yourself because there is a great punishment for such blasphemy.

Oh nah, I dare not challenge God or His beliefs. He’s very vengeful and a hell of a lot more powerful than me. I am just using my free will to question and wonder.

I'm not sure if you're serious or not but that really is a great heart to have. And I think that's completely fair. Encouraged, in fact! [Proverbs 25:2] "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings."

But to say there's got to be a better way is to take it a step beyond inquiry.

I’m as serious as I can be since I have no proof that He isn’t what we on Earth believe Him to be. And I say “better way” not as a challenge or a slight, but more from my experience as a mortal here on Earth wishing that there could be some other possible alternative.

With respect for the free will that he's given us, I have no doubt that we live in the greatest possible world that God could possibly make. All problems in the world arise from man's own decisions against the will of God, nothing on God's part. There could very well be a world where there's no suffering at all, but God would have to violate our free will for that to happen. God could very well make himself seen at all times and watch over us and make sure we never forget he is watching, but there would be no way to develop faith if there's no way to doubt.

No <3

And I accept that.

I mean these bible verses have very little bearing on defining our morality and how we choose to live our lives because they are... literally just written by human beings. Please be wary about religious texts that are just fancified words REAL LIFE people used to exert and document their prejudices and opinions, full-knowing entire generations and civilizations will one day bow to its whims.

I like to believe if God does exist, that he loves everyone; sexual orientation and an uncontrollable preference on whom we choose to love or to bed to inhibit our afterlife sounds petty even for a deity. Be smart live smart.

Most of the people who wrote what we know of as the bible had no idea the far reaching effects it would actually have. The people who wrote it also weren't homophobic or catastrophically racist, either. The catholics added all that and purposely mistranslated entire sections of the bible to demonize minorities while they choked society to death in the dark ages. Its responsible for the corrupt versions of "christianity" found today (modern protestants never actually fully revised out of catholic beliefs systems). Judaism and ancient christianity didnt/dont have the concept of hell, and they also dont have the homophobia either. Any belief system secular or religious can be used to great effect to control. Unfortunately christianity got the shaft centuries ago, and the world has been paying for it ever since.

The Hebrew text of Leviticus - in the Jewish scriptures - is pretty clear about what was acceptable in the centuries before the church even existed - https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0318.htm - and I'm not sure they'd have written any differently had they known their audience would extend so far in time: they wrote their understanding of what they believed God was telling them to write.

Leviticus 18:22 כב וְאֶת-זָכָר--לֹא תִשְׁכַּב, מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה: תּוֹעֵבָה, הִוא. doesn't read particularly favourably to gay sex in any cogent interpretation, so I'm not clear where you see mistranslation. As for them not being racist... they wiped out entire peoples for their religious beliefs, which were largely on tribal lines, so I think you're being a bit disingenuous.

I'm intrigued that you repeatedly single out the Catholic church by name - do you include the Coptics? The Orthodox? How far back do you trace this corruption?

I'm no defender of the doctrine of humans in hell - God gave all men over to perdition that all may be saved - but I also don't think that God gives us carte blanche to do as we want and call it good without restraint - that's more akin to Alistair Crowley's teachings. Paul wrote 'all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial'. Behaviours that may initially be adaptive become stale and toxic. The excesses of the Corinthians were roundly condemned.

I should clarify that when I refer to the "people who wrote X" Im largely talking about the new testament writers because of the context of christianity specifically here. Theres a lot of different people responsible for the bible. Some were garbage, some werent. It depends. As for Lev 18:22, there is a LOT of contention on what that verse is actually talking about. Post catholic canon states its about homosexuality which has zero context reference at the time Leviticus was written, and others added in punctuation that isnt even there originally. Considering the surrounding stuff is about a womans bed, a lot of modern interpretations is that this is either A, talking about pedophillia, (which is almost always what the bible is actually speaking about when you see "homosexual" used, or prostitution) OR its talking about what is and isnt appropriate in a womans bed. I.e dont sleep with a another dude in some womans/your wifes bed; which is kind of reasonable lmao. Not specifically sleeping with men is bad. Paul does not once actually target homosexuality. He targets pedophilia, and temple orgies/prostitution @ married men. Translators and protestant theologians mistranslate his words to instead demonize queer people because of the obvious agenda there.

You cannot take the new and old testament without one-another. They are both the word of God. The old testament prophecies heavily about the coming, the life, the death, and the resurrection of Jesus. Down to the specific location of where he was born. So much so that the 3 wise men were able to locate him using the old testament.

The only way you could misinterpret that passage is if you were being purposely obtuse...

It's pretty astounding how much you profess to know about the bible, but you are entirely incapable of citing any passage for proof...

Its actually like, extremely easy for people to misinterpret entire swaths of the bible when theyve been mistranslated several times over the course of centuries of time, and its in the interest of those in power to maintain the dogma LMAO. Modern christianity does this all the time. Im not quoting, because its unnecessary. Youve already bible thumped the sections of scripture modern christianity thinks deals with homosexuality. None of these passages in the languages they were originally written in deal with homosexuality, and theres again, dozens of revisionists who point this out that take very cursory googling to find. Im not paid to break down 1000 years of religious degradation for you.

What's obtuse and astounding is that you would rather alienate yourself and embrace dogma that isnt found in the bible's original languages than live the life divinity has given you free of supression. Good Luck with all that mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance; and dont blame God for choices and lies you choose to believe because its uncomfortable to consider a better way.

And still you make blanket statements about the bible yet provide zero proof. What do you consider "modern"? Because I only read from the King James version. There are more sections in the bible that discourage homosexuality but I only selected several because they sufficed for my point. If you could reference a single revisionist, then maybe that would add credence to your argument. You are asserting your argument without any proof except "just trust me". Sorry, that's a losing argument.

You keep trying to assert that the translation that I use is so wildly different from its original translation without providing a single piece of evidence to your claim. Can you not see how you seem absurd? At this point you're just projecting. I'm sorry your neck is stiff and your head is so hard. God is perfect and the way he provides is the best way. I'd love to see a way that you think is better but we both know you don't cite proof to your claims.

There's a confusion when people say 'translation': there's the rendering of words and sentences from one language into another, and there's trying to infer and convey the original meaning despite all the cultural change across the centuries (called hermeneutics).

We understand that in 1 Samuel 24:3 when Saul 'covered his feet' in the cave, it means he was either going to sleep or having a pee. It doesn't make much difference to that story (although sleeping makes more sense for him not hearing David sneaking up) but it's still interpretation - not literal. In other contexts it can make a significant difference: when David took a census (2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1) was it God or Satan who inspired him, and what does that mean about the character of God? This needs interpretation because the original Hebrew doesn't make it explicit in Samuel: the best literal translation would leave it ambiguous like the Hebrew, but the KJV says 'the anger of the Lord ... he moved David'.

The King James Version sought to be a literal translation, and has beautiful language, but it still has interpretation which colours the original. If you're serious about understanding the Bible with the level implied by how you're currently using the KJV, you need to start looking into reading in the original ancient Hebrew and ancient Greek, otherwise you're only relying on men: the original scripture may well have been 'God-breathed and useful for instruction' (that verse is not literally translated in the KJV), but claiming the KJV as uniquely authoritative leaves the non-English speaking world with a huge problem! Which authority are you basing your acceptance of that version on? Have you read the accounts of King James' motives? The best Bibles for literal understanding are interlinear - like https://www.biblegateway.com/passag.....version=MOUNCE which gives you the Greek or Hebrew.

Clarification: the KJV says 'inspired' which used to relate to breath, but nowadays that's not how people read that word - which underlines my point: even modern language changes, and the nuances in the choice of words made back when 'holpen' was still in common use no longer cover the precise meanings they were intended to, to support the claim of literal understanding.

Even if you're the sort of person who understands that 'prevent' means 'go before' and not 'stop something happening', you're still reading someone's idiosyncratic selection of then-contemporary language to best express their own understanding of a foreign ancient phrase based on consensus and convention current at that time.

Firstly, I'll repeat that I think it's entirely reasonable for someone to throw Leviticus out if it suits them, but that trying to argue it doesn't say what it clearly says is a sophistry that dresses itself in an appeal to antiquity.

You say that most of the stuff surrounding verse 22 is about a woman's bed but while verse 6 says not to have relations with a close relative, 7-16 only go on to clarify what 'close relative' means; 17-18 talk about not having a woman and her daughter or granddaughter, or her sister if she's still living, 19 to abstain if she's on her period, and 20 says not to sleep with your neighbour's wife. The next verses are quite distinct: about not sacrificing your child to Molech, not bedding men, and not bedding animals.

Now it's notable that incest is only put in categories in terms of men bedding women, with occasional mentions that the nakedness of your female relative is (also) the nakedness of her husband. A literal reading of 7-20 would place no limits on gay sex with close relatives at all, and only by transfer on women initiating sex with close male relatives. This is hardly credible, unless you go along with the idea that sex is only about procreation and incest about avoiding inbreeding, which jibes against verses 17-18 referring to rivalry and lewdness, against the nakedness of your father and brother's wives also being their own nakedness (I infer 'shame' here, and shades of a man becoming of one flesh with his wife) and the general tone of moral outrage in 7-16.

The only real question for me about 22 - which is firmly sandwiched between child sacrifice and bestiality, and not in incest at all - is why there isn't something about women with women when 23 does make explicit mention of women. Perhaps that culture's polygyny and ownership/dowry of wives was relaxed about it - I see no prohibition of having all your wives in bed at the same time, though the rivalry comment suggests that would be rather at the wives' gift.

Now assuming sex isn't just about procreation, the incest laws would obviously extend to not sleeping with male close relatives too, but if 22 stands then there's no need to mention it - and the text we currently have doesn't. This also if 22 is limited to the religious practice in 21, although 21's scope would also include 23 and arguing that as also being otherwise acceptable seems most unlikely.

Now I know there's the argument about the verses referring to uncovering your male relation's shame being a clumsy remnant of redaction, but that's hardly plausible: if you're not going to sleep with your neighbour (because you don't fancy his wife) then who are you going to sleep with?

Honestly I am very tired of these conversations and I will give you the reply of an identical conversation I had with someone else:

God never gives a command that he expects us to follow and doesn't also provide multiple forms of confirmation of said command within his word. So there isn't just 1 passage which condemns homosexuality within the Bible.
Romans 1:27, Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13,1 Timothy 1:8-11,Hebrews 13:1-5,Romans 1:26-28,Jude 1:5-8, and a plethora of other verses strengthen God's negative view on Homosexuality. That God finds it unnatural ,depraved, shameful, detestable, immoral. Not a single good word used to describe it! and on the flipside, I implore you to find a single example of God blessing the sexual relationship of 2 men, or 2 women, like he does many, many times with a man and a woman. I assure you that you will find none.

I was supporting your position that Leviticus 22 is clearly against homosexual acts. But although God's word never returns empty, God uses a variety of approaches to speak, one of which is proclamation (which you've been doing), another of which is reasoned discussion. Different people find it easy to listen and comprehend what is said in different modalities. (God doesn't use burning bushes so much these days.)

The first sentence - to which you seem to be responding - wasn't encouraging anyone to reject the verse, but rather saying that for those who already do reject the obvious reading of Leviticus 22:18, it's more intellectually honest for them to say that they simply reject it (perhaps by them saying 'we have a different culture now', or whatever) than for them to try to marshal rationalisations to argue that it doesn't say what it obviously says.

I was arguing against Nomad, but the structure of how these comments indent is difficult to follow.

God is capable of using all manner of ways to speak to whomever he wants, being that he is the creator of all things. God also uses many different sources to confirm his word.

A god who loves all things is a god of chaos. Without any standard of goodness or evil. God does love everyone, but there are consequences for committing acts that he hates. God loves us so much that he has given a way out of the hell that our sin earns us.

God is the orchestrator of all things. He is the power that holds our forms together moment-to-moment. We owe literally everything to him, and life is such an immense gift people seem to take for granted.

For the longest time, I did believe this, but I wasn't at all obedient to the things God told me I should do. I was a hypocrite. I still am in many ways, but I've decided to work IN God's will, instead of against it. I do so regret how much time I've wasted in my life to vanity. To my pride. Trying to be popular. Wanting to be praised. Not a single time, being able to draw and create such great things (in my own eyes) did I ever thank God, even though he's the one who made it all happen. I just think about all the glory I stole from him and it's frustrating. I should have been killed long, long ago but God has had such mercy and grace on me. I want to be the Child he desires for me to be. I want to give him the things he asks for because he doesn't deserve anything less. I so look forward to Heaven. And I'm so tired of Earth.

We shouldn't respond to their vitriol with hostility. That isn't the heart of Christ. Self control and peace are fruits of the spirit. I know it's terribly difficult, but we are to have a heart of love for our enemies. Because that's the heart God had for US when we were still enemies of God. Yes, many, many lines of logic break apart from their point of views. That's what happens when you remove Truth (Jesus) from your world. You end up with far more questions than answers. And yes, they are hypocrites, professing to be logic and science-minded, but being forced to ignore facts of the universe to make the absence of God work. But we as children of God will be judged by the measure we judge others, and if we're unwilling to give them forgiveness for their foolishness, God will not forgive you of ours. But man, I am not at all the best at having my patience tested. Honestly I am very averse to confrontation and I've grown so uninterested in these conversations. But if I were to give up on them then I wouldn't be obedient to God. And then I wouldn't want God to then give up on me.

I do thank you for your encouragement. So much of the time it feels like I'm fighting a war all by myself. I don't expect everyone to be saved, but I'd like at least 1 person to be saved because of my efforts.

I really like to keep John 15:15-21 When dealing with persecution.
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17These things I command you, that ye love one another. 18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me."

Such a lovely passage. Any and all suffering you go through in the name of Jesus Christ, living in righteousness, has a great blessing attached to it. The more meek and humble you respond to these things, the greater the reward in heaven.

"Suffering in this life, for rapture in the next."

I hope things get better and you find greater meaning, so that you don't feel like this is your only choice. Ironclad faith is a comforting blanket and armour, but nothing in life is meant to be like that. Sexual obsession and sexual denial are both sicknesses our society has suffered for all of time, and neither is righteous. A life in denial is a life without balance.

Do you not get burned when you place your hand in a fire? Do you not fall when you jump off a building? Do your bones not break when applied a certain amount of pressure? ALL things in life have rules. Consequences for your actions. As if not believing in gravity has any bearing on you still being affected by it.

Having read your other replies, there's no point in arguing. I do want to point out that you do not believe in God, you believe, very clearly, in the bible. Which is a book, written by humans, and so by your own logic it's inherently flawed.

Clinging to physical words and pages doesn't take that much faith.

The bible proves its validity by speaking prophecy. Proving that God, who created all things, resides outside of time and space and is all-powerful to affect it. God, who created all things, used humans as tools to spread his word to other humans. I don't know the specific reasons for this but there's no flaw or contradiction in my logic because of it.

The bible is the God created all things and if he wants to use humans to give us his word then he can. I speak to God regularly, but I can't use that as evidence, as I can't share with you my thoughts. The Bible is a constant that I can point to to affirm what I say about God. If you do not base your understanding of God on anything concrete, then your god is not a god of Truth.

We all have faith in everything we know to be true. You have faith that everything you know about the world will remain constant until more information is acquired and live your life accordingly. I have faith that the things spoken about in the Bible are true and that all the things waiting for me as a result of my obedience are real.

Heaven never made sense to me. If I were allowed into heaven (although biblically I don’t qualify), but a friend of mine that’s happily married to his husband with a daughter they raised with love and care aren’t allowed into heaven because of their unrepentant love for each other doesn’t seem right to me.
Heaven wouldn’t be heaven at all knowing they’re not there with me.
I don’t want to spend an eternity in a paradise that doesn’t even have the people I love in it, and knowing that they’re someplace more dreary makes it worse.
Maybe after an eternity of living in heaven they’d slowly fade from my memory as the millenniums pass, but they aren’t people I want to forget.

Although I am an agnostic/apatheist, so the stuff in the Bible isn’t something that matters to me.

Anyway, do what you will and Merry Christmas!

Heaven is you existing in the presence of God. God is the source of all Good, truth, power. Hell is God allowing you to have your way and not be in his presence, and therefore be devoid of the things God is the source of. Why would a God who loves you, then force you to be in his presence for all eternity, when you reject him? If someone rejects you, then you forced them to be with you, that's not real love. God tells us what he likes and what he doesn't like. If you reject him because you don't agree with his standards, then that's you rejecting God, and you choosing Hell for yourself.

If I have to choose between God & Heaven or Family & Hell, I choose the latter without hesitation. I’m not gonna abandon the people I love for God.
Maybe I’d regret my decision after all the unimaginable torment and suffering I endure in Hell, maybe it gets to the point where I don’t care about my family anymore and I just want the pain to stop.
If Hell’s a place God actually sends people to then I don’t believe he’s a god worthy of worship.

Although I guess if there’s gay sex in Hell it can’t be all bad. (I say jokingly)

You will not be with them. If there was any possibility of you enjoying any aspect of hell, even if it's the reconciliation of you being with loved ones, then it wouldn't be hell. And because God is the source of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control, even if you're not isolated, you would loathe and be at war with anyone you come in contacts, given that you would be able to interact with them since you'd be writhing in agony. Keep in mind that God is a God of truth. In hell there is only confusion. You would be disoriented beyond anything you've experienced, but at all times.

I said it before. God is not sending you to Hell. God is allowing you to leave to Hell. he gave us free will and that's what it means.

God loved you so very much that he placed me in your life to tell you directly he wants you to be with him. He takes absolutely no joy in you being separated from him. But you have to make the decision. I also want you to know what's waiting for you if you refuse God. I wish everyone believed and everyone went to heaven. I wish you and your family wanted to believe in and love God so you didn't have to chose between them. I know that even if I lose my family because they chose hell over God, then God would make that loss up to me, because he is also Just and faithful.

We are already having a taste of what the absence of God feels like, and it's horrible. Natural disasters are ramping up, wars are increasing, sicknesses spreading. Death, destruction, chaos. But the amazing thing is that God isn't just killing us. He's giving us a taste of what it's like without him as a warning for us to put our hearts in his hand. He wants to save us before it's too late.

So if I go to Hell I can’t be with my family, and if I go to Heaven I can’t be with my family because they’re in Hell. Seems God screws me over either way and there’s nothing he could do to make that loss up to me. And the idea of Hell (a place of torment) even existing automatically makes God unworthy of worship in my view.
Also, I don’t see why God would even care about gay sex. Sex in general is a completely innocent thing to me (no matter how kinky it is). If it’s consensual and isn’t harming anyone, I don’t see it as a moral issue. Asking me if I think having gay sex is morally wrong is like asking me if I think having watermelon is morally wrong. I like them both and morals don’t really come to mind. Honestly, gay sex is pretty great. :)

The liberal interpretation says that everyone gets into heaven: God turned all men over to perdition that all may be saved.

Jesus' preaching about the kingdom of God often reads more clearly as a 'here and now' thing, with benefits about living well and treating others well, bringing heaven on earth now, rather than about getting into heaven after you die.

Not everyone gets into heaven and heaven lies beyond our life here on Earth. These places are literal. There is no eternity here on Earth. It's incredibly finite. God is not concerned with us transforming Earth into heaven because that's impossible. Especially as God plans to destroy Earth.

Earth will end, certainly, and I certainly hope for heaven (in the original sense of 'hope' as clarified by Romans 8:24-30) but Luke 10:9 has Jesus telling the disciples 'And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you'.

Is 'nigh' a matter of interpretation? Nigh means near to you right now. The kingdom can be on earth every much as it can be in heaven.

A person is healed only because their faith has allowed God to work in them. Jesus was unable to work miracles in his hometown due to their unbelief. And it is belief in Christ that saves us. The reason that Jesus told those that they healed that the Kingdom of God is now unto them was because they were then saved by their faith and the healing was proof!

Just like his disciples believed that Jesus would, within their lifetime, establish the Kingdom of God on all the earth, their interpretation was wrong.

Quite so: 'your faith has made you well'. No disagreement there. The Kingdom of God was at that time and for those healed people, on earth. So as I said, the Kingdom can also be on earth, just as it is in heaven. I'm hardly going to try to overturn the Lord's Prayer! I'm not sure what you were arguing against here.

Ask your pastor or elder about defending your faith - simply declaring that the Bible says something rarely convinces people, and most Christians end up in discussions. It's important to try to clarify what someone means before responding. Perhaps I've failed to in that here and there, for which I'm sorry.

Yes, the disciples wrongly thought Jesus' return was imminent. It's entirely understandable when Jesus says in Matthew 24, 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

The word 'generation' here obviously was understood by Jesus' listeners to mean something like 'the people alive this very day', while still leaving none of them aware of 'the day or the hour'.

I found
https://khouse.org/articles/2000/289/ which connects the start of Jesus' 'generation' to the people who witness all the events he lists, but it's still an interpretation rather than a literal reading.

Nobody seriously encourages people to gouge out their eye or cut off their hand, 'lest they cause you to sin', so even the 'literal' Bible believers do some level of interpretation.

Once we accept that nobody believes the Bible literally, then it's about what level you choose and why. Which brings us back to debate and discussion, just like the rabbis and early Christians did, before the catastrophic Nicean council was called by the pagan Roman emperor Constantine, to stop them arguing and make them easier to rule. He only converted to Christianity at the very last moment on his deathbed, so I'm sure he's saved, but I question the godliness of Nicea.

It's not God's "fault" that you or your family is in hell or heaven, as it is your own personal choices where you go. You screw God over by deciding to deny him and leave him. He doesn't WANT to be separated from you. He wants to be with you in joy and peace and love. But there's a consequence for your decision. Hell is simply a place without God. You being there literally means you refused God and all the goodness that being in his presence offered.
There are many things I don't really understand about God. I still want to be with him though. And if he tells me to do something, or not to do something, being that he knows all things and loves me, I know that it is within his will and desire for the best possible outcome for me. I don't get the best possible outcome if I'm disobedient to that will. And I get the worst possible outcome if I deny God.
Just because you don't know the repercussions to an action, doesn't mean there are none. Even I am ignorant to the depths of the effects homosexuality (Or any other sex out of that which is ordained by God) has on a person. But I fear God too much to want to test him and I know he will make it up to me for this small time on Earth in obedience to his command. There's so, so much more than what's in this universe that he wants to give us and I'm interested in seeing what those things are. Things far greater than any momentary satisfaction sex provides.

I’ve done a lot of sexual stuff with me and my buddies and have been in at least one foursome, and I’m a pretty kinky guy all around with no embarrassment in regards to sex. But I don’t feel controlled by sex because I have my priorities. I was valedictorian for my high school, I helped with teaching in college, I love studying linguistics and archaeology, I love drawing, I love wrestling and getting rough, I enjoy spending time with my Mom & Dad, sister & brothers, nephews & nieces, and of course, my dog. There’s more to life than sex, but that doesn’t mean I don’t wanna enjoy the hell out of it. It’s a pretty awesome thing, I think. As is all the other stuff I mentioned.

Anyway, I’m an agnostic apatheist so what God wants is as important to me as what Zeus wants. Still fascinating though. And biblically accurate angels are rad as hell.

I don’t mind that you have different views than me, as you’re not really forcing anything on me. I wish you all the best, and good luck on your journey towards Heaven.

I don't want to sound rude, but the whole 'giving my life for god' and keeping away from things he doesn't like sounds like he's a petulant child. No better than the Greek gods of old who'd vaporise you for simply saying something is beautiful or whatever peeved them off. Plus it creates insane followers who hurt others simply for being wrong.

Science is the best way to go in my opinion. Either that or the Chaos gods of course.

God loves us and has only our best intentions at heart. He doesn't like things that hurt us and it isn't a petulant child to give guidelines to refrain from such things. God doesn't like it when we blaspheme against him, yet you are still free to do so without being vaporized. I do not know which example of god you're using, but it isn't the God of the Bible.

God is the creator of science, and he would never contradict himself. They go hand-in-hand, just like science-and-math, or history-and-science. It's not either/or.

Didn't he kill a bunch of Egyptian children? That didn't make Horus and co. happy.

If God exists, then eternity exists, being that God is an eternal being. We are eternal as well, though we have a beginning, unlike God. Therefore God didn't end their existence, he merely moved them from 1 stage of life to the next. We will all die one day, as it's the natural process. We aren't owed life and any moment further is a gift. God has the right to stop giving us this gift.

Wow, wasn't expecting to see outdated religious arguments that even the Catholic church doesn't profess to believe in anymore in 2020 on FA, but I guess here we are. Good luck man. You're not broken and God doesn't care that you're gay, and I hope one day you can see that instead of living in fear.

Hi. Im a religious queer sociologist born and raised in conservative christianity. I am not christian anymore, but I remain religious. Heres some truth thats hard to hear for most modern Christians who have no actual/factual historical or linguistic frame of reference for ancient christianity that hasnt been corrupted by the catholic church. Homosexuality isnt a sin. Period. The word is not even found in the original versions of the bible and there is no historical or linguistic evidence to indicate that original per-catholocism christianity had any ire towards queer people whatsoever. European ex catholic translators purposely mistranslating entire swaths of the bible to demonize queer people Is the actual sin and abomination. One that has resulted in untold suffering and homophobia the world over. Your faith is not incongruent with your queerness. Instead of swallowing the koolaid of a corrupt modern church that has no idea WTF it is talking about/has zero historicity or linguistic truth to back up claims made by malevolent puritians touting a marred version of christianity, reject it; and grow. Your God doesnt require your celibacy, or repression of who you are. That, is the lie. The lie that alienates people from faith, and from themselves. If you (or anyone in this thread) need someone to talk to to work out a lifetime of lies about christianity and what it *actually* has to say about queerness; my notes are open. Merry Christmas

I don't follow Catholic doctrine. "Homosexuality isn't a sin."- Citation needed. To sin means "To miss the mark". As in to not live by the standards set by God. It would be absurd to say this isn't in the Bible.

[1 Timothy 1:8-11] But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

It clearly says that the Bible is meant for sinners, and lists off "for them (men) that defile themselves with mankind", speaking of homosexuality.

Like I said before, the burden of proof is actually on you to provide passages in the bible that promote or condone homosexuality.

"God does not require your celibacy" How could you possibly make that assumption? It is a personal decision that I am not telling anyone else to do. But God is clear that he doesn't like homosexuality. "Repression of who you are" If you're tempted into murder then God requires that suppression of that lust. Same with any other lust. It is only alienating if you refuse to adhere by the guidelines set. that is your own choice to be alienated. But the Bible was never made for those who could adhere to the rules set by God. The atonement of Jesus Christ means that we have hope, even though we have sinned, or "missed the mark". But it's not real repentance if you refuse to turn away from that sin.

All modern protestant doctrine originates in Catholocism pre-reformation. The only major beliefs that they drop are the pope, and a few others like confession. Its moot. Every verse you are using/implying as "examples" of the bible condemning homosexuality has dozens of sociologists, linguists, historians, and even some rabbi who basically all go "thats not what that word actually means, or what that actually says." There are now entire ministries devoted to righting the enormous translation wrongs that were made purposely at the time to demonize us. You have google. The ability to seek truth is right there. You've simply made a decision to hold onto corruptive dogma instead of be open to the freedom you actually possess. Thats not my problem to fix. Its not really an unreasonable assumption to say that Divinity isn't so simple and self deprecating to require your celibacy over something as intangible and unchosen sexuality. Especially if said requirement of celibacy is based on centuries old prejudice and mistranslation.

I'm not even religious, but I LOVE seeing someone who has that, “This isn’t a debate; I am actually educated on the subject and I’m telling you you’re wrong” air to them, especially when it comes to this subject! <3

I'm glad you found peace in your faith. I do also pray that you continue to treat our LGBT+ siblings with love and compassion, regardless of the life they choose to live or who they love. As God's children, we also must extend His love to unbelievers; as He did as Christ. Always treat people like people! Love them.

God tells us to love our neighbors as ourselves. It wouldn't be love if I were to mistreat others because a difference in belief. God also tells us that we will be subject to the way we treat others. I would suffer greatly if I were to mistreat others because of their sexual preference, being that I, myself, am attracted to men.

I think that's exactly what I'm doing, extending His love to unbelievers. That's the whole point of this post. haha! I truly do want everyone to be saved, as I know I am saved. A person cannot be saved if they do not know, which is why God told us to preach the gospel to all the Earth. I have been disobedient in this for so long. But I want to be the Child that God wants me to be.

A few Words about hearts in Scripture. Scripture has a lot of positive things to say about our hearts; rather than call them naturally evil. For one, we store our treasures there and what matters to us the most (both good and bad) (Matthew 6:21). Also the nature of a person determines their heart's desire (Matthew 12:35). We're also instructed to guard our hearts, because they are precious (Proverbs 4:23). So God would not ask us to hate a part of ourselves that He created to keep His love within us. Hearts can be hardened, but they also can be softened. God also wants you to keep His knowledge and love in YOUR heart (Proverbs 2:10). Just remember this in compassion:
"Though good advice lies deep within the heart, a person with understanding will draw it out" Proverbs 20:5

This is why even folks who don't believe still can be compassionate; because its not the heart that's evil, its what you store in it. Stay blessed

[Jeramiah 17:9] "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
Yes, the heart can be the source of great good, but it also lies to us. Which is why it is not good to rely solely on your feelings to get through life. Our hearts may be the source of convincing our minds that something may be good for us when in reality is hurting us. God did not create us to give in to every whim our hearts may have. Which is why God still gives us his commandments and other forms of commands. Our hearts may drive us to commit murder, or steal, or cheat, or anything else that God doesn't like, so it's dangerous to follow it.

You aren't saved because you are compassionate. You are saved for believing in Christ and repenting.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. But I see you already have your hands full with this post. You already have your own direction written on your heart it seems. God bless.

I pray God keeps your mind and heart clear as well. In love for others, we can get lost in how we reach out to them. And often it can lead to them hardening their hearts further. Christ on earth was a great example on how to live the proverb "A gentle answer deflects anger, but harsh words make tempers flare". Proverbs 15:1
Testimony will speak to the people that need it, but sometimes I think how and where we talk also helps others understand better and with less anger and bitterness. Look at how Christ ministered and it will be clearer. Much love and blessings

I have my faults, I admit. And it definitely isn't easy to return a tone of peace and gentleness when you're dealt a tone of anger and hostility.

It's not easy. And we're human. But we do have to live up to Christ in turning the other cheek. It is hard and that's something even He acknowledges. Stay blessed

Before going ahead on this, mind that I personally am someone who believes very strongly in God and absolutely detests the Bible (as someone who has read it about a dozen times).

If we're going to operate on Biblical terms, here, it's also worth noting you're not sparing yourself by choosing to not act on your thoughts and desires. The Bible makes a point of the idea of "sinful thoughts" and communicates that the mere thought is still committing the sin and makes you "unclean". Need examples?

[Matthew 5:28] But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

[Matthew 5:19-5:20] For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.

For a more clear example, think of how envy is a sin. Envy is literally just a headspace, and the act of taking and hoarding things for yourself are classified as entirely different sins (greed, thievery). It is a sin to want what somebody else has.

Now here's my take on God:

God created you. You have an innate connection to God. The idea that you need to earn it or that you could -do- anything that risks that breaks that connection is insane. The only thing that risks that connection in my opinion is letting -other- people tell you what God is.

You have a connection to him, you are his child. You have more capacity to express and know God than any person or book could ever give you. Drop anything that would cause you to view God out of fear or live the rest of your life and possibly eternity of deluding yourself into thinking God botched something when making you gay.

As I said to my old pastor: "Imagine how God must feel standing right in front of you, already loving you, already accepting you, already a part of you, and you just keep looking up to the sky for him and hoping he recognizes your efforts."

I spent a lot of time thinking about what God must feel when he looks at us, and maybe my "heart is being deceitful" or whatever but when I think of looking down on all of humanity and think of people using my name in tandem with the perpetuation of self-loathing and fear...it feels really gross.

Love born of terror is not love. Free will where you burn someone for eternity because they walk outside of a very specific, narrow line is not free will.

If someone tells you that you can choose a cupcake or a cookie but pulls out a gun and says "oh but if you choose the cupcake I will kill you right where you stand.", do you sit there and think "wow what a generous person to give me a free cookie and the option to choose a cupcake instead!"

Like...if your answer to that is yes I don't think I even have more to say.

The God you are describing is not the God of the bible, and therefore an idol.

The Love I share with the Father is not born from Terror, but of joy and hope. He's given me everything even though I deserved nothing. Even though I made decisions to deserve hell, he hasn't given that to me, but instead given me a way to still be with him. There's nothing I can be but thankful in understanding this.

But I agree. The God you worship sounds pretty miserable.

Your metaphor is wrong. It's more like Someone gives you a pool of water and a pool of lava and says "Choose the pool of water. It's nice and refreshing. You can choose either but you will die a horrible death if you choose the lava." But you choose the lava anyway and curse the person for YOUR OWN decision as you burn.

The problem in your critique of my metaphor is that...you're basically telling someone they have to follow an exact thing to get into the pool of water and then if they don't follow every single one of those rules they are pushed into the pool of lava.

I mean if someone told me I had to sacrifice all of my critical thinking to get into their nice pool and the other pool was full of lava I would just....not get in a pool. "Do exactly what I say or burn in eternal torment" doesn't exactly leave much wiggle room.

If we were just talking about basic consequences here there would literally be no point to The Bible existing at all. The entire point is to create consequences for things they didn't want people doing, who did them because they didn't care about the actual consequences. "Oh no they rode a dick and it was nice so they did it again. TELL THEM THEY'LL BURN FOREVER that'll do it!"

If God decided that touching a fire burnt the moment you touch it, why would he pull all of this "oh I know it SEEMS fine but really it's impure. Trust me, you'll find out in the afterlife."

Considering to the freedom we will get to experience in eternity with the Father, Spending the miniscule time we have here on Earth being obedient, doing what we are told to do, and not doing what we are told not to do, it really is

I keep explaining this but it doesn't seem you're understanding. It isn't God forcing you into hell. It's God allowing you to follow through with your decision and be separated from him for all eternity. It just so happens that because God is the source of holiness, truth, love, joy peace, patience, kind goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control, and all other aspects of Perfection, that when you are separated from that source, you are in a place devoid of those things. And that is the culmination of Hell. YOU chose that yourself! Nobody pushed you. YOU ran and dove head-first! That is what it means to have free will!

Now you're just being obtuse. You are the one who presented a metaphor where you are presented 2 options and you must pick 1. If this metaphor is applied to real life, you cannot chose not to go to heaven or hell because we all die.. But it's our own choice where we're sent.

You're becoming incoherent.

- Okay.
-Yes, I know this. Which is why we are all guilty sinners and worthy of hell, even those who believe they have never acted on their sinful thoughts. Which is why the atonement by someone who was sinless was required. Thus, Jesus sacrificed himself for us, taking the penalty of those who believe onto himself. Though I fail to see your point in all of this.

-God is perfect and holy in every way. When we have sin in our hearts that breaks our connection to God because God cannot come in contact with sin. Which is why when Jesus was on the cross, and he took on all of our sins, God the Father was forced to separate from him, hence: "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" An opinion based on what? Definitely not the word of God himself, being that you detest his word.

-We aren't all the child of God. If we refuse God, we will be the child of Satan or the World. Unlike the Bible, I am not perfect. I never said God "botched" me. And God didn't "make" me gay. God made me as he intended me to be, but it was my own decisions that caused me to sin.

-Not sure what that last quote is supposed to say. Yes, God already loves you, and is a part of you. But he does not accept you as you are. He intends to make you greater than you are and that means getting rid of the aspects of you that are holding you back, and holding you away from him, like your sin. I don't know what god you are looking up to the sky for, but it's not the God who created you and the universe. Not the God of the bible, which you detest.

Okay well I'll just let you drown in your Kool-aid and call it good cause clearly you're not in any sort of headspace to be critical of your views.

But I will leave on the pretty baseline note of: You realize God created evil, too, right? There is just no way around that. God created Lucifer, meaning he created him with the flaws that led to his betrayal. Everything, including evil, has come from God.

He's not gonna vaporize because he touched a thief.

It certainly is easy for you to say "You're not being self-critical", as if you see errors in my argument, while at the same time refusing to point them out.

God created lucifer as a perfect being. In fact, he was the MOST perfect angel. But God gave him the capacity to choose. He chose the wrong thing and that resulted in sin(To miss the mark.) God didn't create sin. "Sin" is simply the absence of holiness. God being the source. You get more sin the further away from God's will your choices reside.

Ah yes. The bible. Destroying humanity for thousands of years. I'd take masturbation over feeling shame about my existence and hating myself any day buddy.

Destroying humanity? Howso?

This is not something I relate to, but best of luck to you and Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas, Bear! And happy new year!

as someone who had been abused by christian clergy for many years and led to believe i and many others were nothing more than abominations for simply existing, im really deeply sorry that this is hurting you so much because i can recognize that familiar pain too. i hope you can seek peace, help and support in acceptance for who you are without being treated so blasphemously for it

I had explained that God does not feel that way, and all those who mistreated and abused you were doing things God never wanted. In fact, "Abusers of mankind" is also on the list of those who will not inherit the kingdom of God, so those who would condemn you are in no better shape, even if they lie to themselves. They will be judged for their actions of hatred toward you. We all have access to the hope Jesus offers through salvation. He looks at our sin and sees no difference between homosexuality and thievery or even murder, in that they can be forgiven. Nobody is ever condemned by God for simply being tempted. It's the action of following through with that temptation that gets us in trouble, hence why I have decided to be celibate. Also, nobody ever improved on themselves by accepting themselves as they are. Nobody is perfect and we should all be striving for perfection. We should all try to be better than the person we were yesterday, in the direction of Jesus Christ.

being lgbt will never be on a similar level as murder, im sorry you feel that it is. the lgbt community has such a rich history and weve fought a lot to be respected and treated as human beings for who we are. being gay or bi or trans is no more wrong than the color of your skin you were born with!

It isn't me who set the rules, it was God. If you reject God and his Word because you can't give in to your lusts and temptations, then just know there's judgement for that decision. God expressly says multiple times in his Word that he desires us not to give into sexual immorality. There's only 1 relationship where sex is involved that he blessed and that is between man and woman. It wasn't right that people would raise their hand and make a person suffer simply for having a temptation, but it's ludicrous for you to then demand that the fulfilment of that temptation be a right. But in the end it's your own decision. I've just come to say that that decision carries heavy consequences, and the benefits of not giving into them and repenting toward God vastly outweighs any small satisfaction in the moment of doing them.

Also, if you reject God and construct for yourself a god that accepts and even promotes the violations of the true God's commandments, you are worshiping an idol, not God.

oh dont get me wrong, i dont worship anything. but self actualization and self love dont need to exist at the expense of snuffing out who you are. dont be so harsh on yourself. maybe you can look into lgbt groups and be able to meet folks who have gone through similar hardships

We all are a slave to something, whether we want to admit it or not. You will never grow unless you are willing to first acknowledge your own flaws. Whether they be harsh or soft criticisms is subjective. You're not perfect, so do something about it.
I don't know what you meant by that last comment.

never claimed i was perfect! but being lgbt isnt a flaw, its just who you are. what i mean is, maybe you can look and see if there are local lgbt groups where you live, or groups online who may cater to gay/trans/etc people who are struggling with faith and accepting identity, because youre not alone in this and it sucks to have to go through it without any support

It's as much of a flaw as being tempted into murder, or lying, or thievery, or cheating, or abuse. Not all sins warrant the same judgement, as some are more egregious than others, but God is willing to forgive them all if we're willing to acknowledge them and repent from them, to Him. What's certainly evil about our society is convincing us that there's no harm in giving into these lusts and temptations, and that God doesn't know what he's talking about when he tells us not to do them. I don't need a support group that will brainwash me into thinking what's Evil is Good, and what's Good is Evil.

I place my identity and faith in Christ. I confidently know who I am and who I am to be, because I know the Father. It's you who is living in fear and bondage and it's saddening to see you running from that fact.

im sorry you do see being lgbt as being wrong dude. still i hope you can tackle the internalized homophobia

A good parent tells a child that they cannot have candy, as candy is not good for their health. The child cannot perceive this reasoning, because the initial good feelings the child knows that candy gives. A good child will still adhere to the guidance of the parent, even though they cannot understand. The child will trust that the parent has their best intentions at heart.

A bad child rejects the guidance of the parent and disobeys their commands to fulfil those desires for the candy. They will go through great suffering having only a diet of candy. I am so sorry that you have been convinced that you are powerless for your desire of candy even though you have been instructed not to eat it. Only in love do I tell you to give your heart to the Father and repent from the things he does not delight in. Because of your great desire to live life according to the whims of your deceitful heart, you will suffer greatly.

good luck getting over the homophobia dude! please dont tell other lgbt people they are sinners solely for existing

Hail Christ!

There is many things I wish I could perfectly convey to you, but alas, I am FLAWED! >:U
Life is so, so , SO dang short here on Earth. Our existence here on Earth is as a shadow. We haven't even started real life, which is in eternity. We are as a butterfly in our egg stage. Haven't you ever felt within you :This doesn't feel real." That's because it's not! But our existence here will set the stage for our eternity. Fools of Earth will place all their eggs in 1 basket on Earth, instead of being like the wise and saving up treasures ,which will never fade away, for themselves in Heaven.

Samson of the Bible lived a life filled to the brim with Sin. He violated every command of how to live by God, and suffered greatly for it. Only in the last moments of his life did he give his heart to God, and even for that I know he was GREATLY blessed! Think about how much time we have been granted in life. How many more blessings, then, would the Father give us if we started giving our lives to him now? God is a God of justice. He sees all our hardships we face in living a life dedicated to him. There is nothing you can ever do in the name of Jesus that will not reap a reward for you in heaven, that's 10,000x greater (I think that's the literal value, maybe more.) than whatever it is you lost. Like relationships, health, opportunity, wealth, comfort, etc.

I want to see you in heaven, and I want to rejoice with you over all the presents God gives you that you've earned from your obedience and your love to Him. :)