Is hell really an everlasting torture chamber?
4 years ago
I've never talked about this, but many years ago I was at one of my lowest points in my life as the thought of hell got stuck in my head and I began suffering under the weight of the magnitude of such an impossibly horrific thing happening to others, some in my family or even myself. It was so emotionally devastating it felt like a hell in itself, I did not know how to come to grips with God inflicting a punishment so impossibly cruel and I couldn't cope with the thought of anyone, even the devil himself going through it.
At the time I was trying to make certain that I was saved, because what if I got something wrong and this was my fate? I'll admit that too this day I'm concerned about it, but thats kind of always been my nature, to be unsure and need confirmation.
Well what happened during that time was that while I was looking into it and saw many "bible answers" pages telling me, YES! In fact its even worse than that! You will burn in agony for all eternity and in a trillion years of writhing in incomprehensible pain, you will have only just begun your punishment". They'd even go so far as to claim that us in heaven would revel in delight at the sight of this, joyous, cheerful celebration that our friends and family are trapped in an oven for infinite time. I'm sure to you and those who are not Christians have even realized how totally out of left field this seems, it just doesn't add up with the option of free will or the nature of God's lessons on just punishments befitting a crime. After all, when your only choices are live forever in heaven or be roasted forever, are you really making a choice here? Is that love or fear? How could God love us if he knowingly created us with full knowledge that he'd intentionally create this torture chamber to put most of us? Would any parent do this to their own child? I wouldn't do it to any human being thats ever lived, not even would I do it to the Devil for 24 hours. Its a punishment so inexplicably horrendously cruel and unthinkable that nothing could possibly be more evil. An infinite punishment is not justified for a temporary life of sin.
That's when I found some writings by Edward Fudge, he was researching the Bible on this very issue to find out what the Bible had to say about it. He had held the belief that this is what the Bible teaches, but when going through the Bible both Old and New Testament, he found that there was little to actually back up this claim, wherein fact the Bible was much more clear that hell, while very real, was not infinite. When you bring this up to some people, they immediately think, HERESEY! Hes questioning the teachings of God! Hes liberalizing the Bible, hes softening it to be more palatable! But its not true, whats written in the Bible has to be accepted by believers, but there is little to back up the traditional view that hell is Gods sadistic torture chamber, but for a few symbolic verses that we infer must be suggesting this as its what was always taught.
The traditional view wrongly holds the belief that man's soul is inherently immortal therefore, you'll live forever in heaven or in hell. But nowhere is this suggested, this was a view brought into Christianity by converted Greek philosophers and taught as orthodoxy since then. Immortality is conditional upon accepting God's sacrifice on the cross, you accept him and live or reject him and cease to live. People are afraid to question it, its so engrained in the Christian church that to even begin thinking it must be wrong (even when we all feel so deeply disgusted at the thought of it and wish more than anything it werent true), means we are committing an act of heresy against God. But wouldn't it be more gravely offensive to go around the world telling people that God is the kind of being that would set your grandmother on fire for not one minute, not 1 hour, not 1 day, not 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, 1 decade, 1 century, not even a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion years would be enough screaming agony to pay for her sin of "not believing in Jesus".
I now no longer hold this belief and not because I'm choosing a false belief that makes me feel better, but because I believe the traditional teachings of hell are the false beliefs and it is unacceptable that it is being taught to our children and told to those estranged from God that this is who they must worship. Its a lie about Gods character and is doing more damage to bringing people to salvation than anything else. I'm not going to try to prove it to you, but if you're interested in researching it I suggest you watch lectures by Edward Fudge on Youtube or you can read about it here;
https://www.hellhadesafterlife.com/.....al-immortality
I think this gives a good quick rundown on the many arguments in favor of this view, edward fudge does a great job showing both sides. It is a scriptural look through of the Bible, the passages that reference the fate of the unsaved and the exegesis of the meaning of words used. Its interesting if not only just to dispel this silly idea people have about hell, whether its the place satan runs with his pitchfork or the medieval pits of fire that was used to terrify people into the church.
I think if you take the time to carefully go through the issue, you'll come to find that a lot more things make sense and align with the nature of our existence, our relationship with God and free will. Is it not more just that God gave us life out of nothing and said, you have failed, but because I lived and died in your place, you can either go back to the nothing you were or by my grace you can live forever? That makes a lot more sense than, I created you to ultimately torture you for all eternity, so love me and I'll spare you." It doesn't just logically make more sense, its scriptural and in keeping with the character of God. We are all given the sense of God's fair justice, whether we are Christian or not, we are not totally without the presence of God and in us he instilled these senses about moral virtue. If every human being on the planet knows that eternal torture is not just and God teaches fair punishment for severity of the crime, then its fair to say there is something off about the traditional teachings of hell. Even pastors know it, they'll never own up to what hell really is and try to gloss over it. They'll say eternal separation from God or just call it hell, but they won't say "infinite conscious torture", because they're ashamed of it, but too afraid to question if its even true.
Knowing this has helped me to feel closer to God, I'm failing him terribly, I'm failing at my own life terribly, but I think that being saved causes a constant strife within you to not feel comfortable in your life the way you are and look for the things in it to better and be more in line with God. I think if I struggle with this at all, then I must be hearing God speaking to me.
Jesus says that you are changed when you accept him, you become new and through his grace alone, not works, not good deeds, nothing YOU do, saves you from death. To be saved, you confess that Jesus took your sins upon him and died in your place and that you accept his given gift of salvation through him. You confess that you are a sinner and ask him to forgive. Believe that he is the Lord, even though you might doubt or question or fear, have faith in him and accept him into your heart. Its by grace alone you are saved, meaning you do not deserve it at all and you can't impress God by doing good, kind or charitable things, your life is only saved eternally through Jesus's sacrifice. Its a gift given that you accept and in doing so, being changed, you feel the constant nagging conflict to fight against your sin even if you don't do a great job of it.
I guess thats what I wanted to get out, I've really never done a good job spreading the word like I should because I'm not a social person, I can't speak very well, I've been too caught up in my own troubles and I just don't know enough. But on this issue, I really wanted to share, because I have no doubt others are troubled by it and I shouldn't keep it to myself assuming everyone else already knows or will find it on their own. I hope this helps and I truly hope I could lead at least one person to being saved. I think people get it into their mind that becoming a Christian means becoming a boring church mom who wags her finger at "naughty words" and has no fun in life, everything is a sin. I do not believe so, I think Christians often invent sins to abstain from in order to look more pure and pious.
Whats most important is to ask God for forgiveness and salvation because that is the seed that grows inside you. I would often take the approach of proving God must exist scientifically and logically and I think thats a good idea, but in doing that I always argued for a generic "creator of all things" but did not proclaim Jesus. I figured if I could argue for the existence of a God first, then I could then speak of the Bible, but I don't seem to get to step 2 because its rather difficult convincing people of something like that.
Anyways not to keep going on. Please take a look at the link or look up seminars by Edward Fudge, its interesting nonetheless and should even change your opinion from an atheist point of view about hell and Christianity.
If you're wondering about my art, my vision has been getting a lot worse, I'm trying to work through it mentally and emotionally and I want to keep painting. The past 3 months I've actually been renovating my attic and I've built a whole bedroom up above mine. So now I have two rooms, one stacked on top of the one you've seen before in my scraps. It was just rafters up there, I built in a floor, walls, slatboard ceiling, a loft within a loft, its got electrical, fully insulated. All I need to do now is put in a door at the attic exit, drywall some more, add carpet and hardwood flooring then drop kick a hole through the floor right into my 1st floor bedroom ceiling, build a ladder and its good. I intend to do art (hopefully) up in that room.
At the time I was trying to make certain that I was saved, because what if I got something wrong and this was my fate? I'll admit that too this day I'm concerned about it, but thats kind of always been my nature, to be unsure and need confirmation.
Well what happened during that time was that while I was looking into it and saw many "bible answers" pages telling me, YES! In fact its even worse than that! You will burn in agony for all eternity and in a trillion years of writhing in incomprehensible pain, you will have only just begun your punishment". They'd even go so far as to claim that us in heaven would revel in delight at the sight of this, joyous, cheerful celebration that our friends and family are trapped in an oven for infinite time. I'm sure to you and those who are not Christians have even realized how totally out of left field this seems, it just doesn't add up with the option of free will or the nature of God's lessons on just punishments befitting a crime. After all, when your only choices are live forever in heaven or be roasted forever, are you really making a choice here? Is that love or fear? How could God love us if he knowingly created us with full knowledge that he'd intentionally create this torture chamber to put most of us? Would any parent do this to their own child? I wouldn't do it to any human being thats ever lived, not even would I do it to the Devil for 24 hours. Its a punishment so inexplicably horrendously cruel and unthinkable that nothing could possibly be more evil. An infinite punishment is not justified for a temporary life of sin.
That's when I found some writings by Edward Fudge, he was researching the Bible on this very issue to find out what the Bible had to say about it. He had held the belief that this is what the Bible teaches, but when going through the Bible both Old and New Testament, he found that there was little to actually back up this claim, wherein fact the Bible was much more clear that hell, while very real, was not infinite. When you bring this up to some people, they immediately think, HERESEY! Hes questioning the teachings of God! Hes liberalizing the Bible, hes softening it to be more palatable! But its not true, whats written in the Bible has to be accepted by believers, but there is little to back up the traditional view that hell is Gods sadistic torture chamber, but for a few symbolic verses that we infer must be suggesting this as its what was always taught.
The traditional view wrongly holds the belief that man's soul is inherently immortal therefore, you'll live forever in heaven or in hell. But nowhere is this suggested, this was a view brought into Christianity by converted Greek philosophers and taught as orthodoxy since then. Immortality is conditional upon accepting God's sacrifice on the cross, you accept him and live or reject him and cease to live. People are afraid to question it, its so engrained in the Christian church that to even begin thinking it must be wrong (even when we all feel so deeply disgusted at the thought of it and wish more than anything it werent true), means we are committing an act of heresy against God. But wouldn't it be more gravely offensive to go around the world telling people that God is the kind of being that would set your grandmother on fire for not one minute, not 1 hour, not 1 day, not 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, 1 decade, 1 century, not even a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion years would be enough screaming agony to pay for her sin of "not believing in Jesus".
I now no longer hold this belief and not because I'm choosing a false belief that makes me feel better, but because I believe the traditional teachings of hell are the false beliefs and it is unacceptable that it is being taught to our children and told to those estranged from God that this is who they must worship. Its a lie about Gods character and is doing more damage to bringing people to salvation than anything else. I'm not going to try to prove it to you, but if you're interested in researching it I suggest you watch lectures by Edward Fudge on Youtube or you can read about it here;
https://www.hellhadesafterlife.com/.....al-immortality
I think this gives a good quick rundown on the many arguments in favor of this view, edward fudge does a great job showing both sides. It is a scriptural look through of the Bible, the passages that reference the fate of the unsaved and the exegesis of the meaning of words used. Its interesting if not only just to dispel this silly idea people have about hell, whether its the place satan runs with his pitchfork or the medieval pits of fire that was used to terrify people into the church.
I think if you take the time to carefully go through the issue, you'll come to find that a lot more things make sense and align with the nature of our existence, our relationship with God and free will. Is it not more just that God gave us life out of nothing and said, you have failed, but because I lived and died in your place, you can either go back to the nothing you were or by my grace you can live forever? That makes a lot more sense than, I created you to ultimately torture you for all eternity, so love me and I'll spare you." It doesn't just logically make more sense, its scriptural and in keeping with the character of God. We are all given the sense of God's fair justice, whether we are Christian or not, we are not totally without the presence of God and in us he instilled these senses about moral virtue. If every human being on the planet knows that eternal torture is not just and God teaches fair punishment for severity of the crime, then its fair to say there is something off about the traditional teachings of hell. Even pastors know it, they'll never own up to what hell really is and try to gloss over it. They'll say eternal separation from God or just call it hell, but they won't say "infinite conscious torture", because they're ashamed of it, but too afraid to question if its even true.
Knowing this has helped me to feel closer to God, I'm failing him terribly, I'm failing at my own life terribly, but I think that being saved causes a constant strife within you to not feel comfortable in your life the way you are and look for the things in it to better and be more in line with God. I think if I struggle with this at all, then I must be hearing God speaking to me.
Jesus says that you are changed when you accept him, you become new and through his grace alone, not works, not good deeds, nothing YOU do, saves you from death. To be saved, you confess that Jesus took your sins upon him and died in your place and that you accept his given gift of salvation through him. You confess that you are a sinner and ask him to forgive. Believe that he is the Lord, even though you might doubt or question or fear, have faith in him and accept him into your heart. Its by grace alone you are saved, meaning you do not deserve it at all and you can't impress God by doing good, kind or charitable things, your life is only saved eternally through Jesus's sacrifice. Its a gift given that you accept and in doing so, being changed, you feel the constant nagging conflict to fight against your sin even if you don't do a great job of it.
I guess thats what I wanted to get out, I've really never done a good job spreading the word like I should because I'm not a social person, I can't speak very well, I've been too caught up in my own troubles and I just don't know enough. But on this issue, I really wanted to share, because I have no doubt others are troubled by it and I shouldn't keep it to myself assuming everyone else already knows or will find it on their own. I hope this helps and I truly hope I could lead at least one person to being saved. I think people get it into their mind that becoming a Christian means becoming a boring church mom who wags her finger at "naughty words" and has no fun in life, everything is a sin. I do not believe so, I think Christians often invent sins to abstain from in order to look more pure and pious.
Whats most important is to ask God for forgiveness and salvation because that is the seed that grows inside you. I would often take the approach of proving God must exist scientifically and logically and I think thats a good idea, but in doing that I always argued for a generic "creator of all things" but did not proclaim Jesus. I figured if I could argue for the existence of a God first, then I could then speak of the Bible, but I don't seem to get to step 2 because its rather difficult convincing people of something like that.
Anyways not to keep going on. Please take a look at the link or look up seminars by Edward Fudge, its interesting nonetheless and should even change your opinion from an atheist point of view about hell and Christianity.
If you're wondering about my art, my vision has been getting a lot worse, I'm trying to work through it mentally and emotionally and I want to keep painting. The past 3 months I've actually been renovating my attic and I've built a whole bedroom up above mine. So now I have two rooms, one stacked on top of the one you've seen before in my scraps. It was just rafters up there, I built in a floor, walls, slatboard ceiling, a loft within a loft, its got electrical, fully insulated. All I need to do now is put in a door at the attic exit, drywall some more, add carpet and hardwood flooring then drop kick a hole through the floor right into my 1st floor bedroom ceiling, build a ladder and its good. I intend to do art (hopefully) up in that room.
FA+

I don't want anyone to ever feel what I felt. So Its surely a good thing that God's true word lifted me out of it.
Admittedly, there's not a lot of evidence scientifically towards either; but I'd like to hold out hope in the event some such things exist, at least for the friends I've known that have passed away. They deserve to be alive at least in some form, and I really hope they are.
The thought of having no conciousness, thoughts, emotions, anything, etc. scares the shit out of me. I guess it's the price to pay for our intelligence.
Everything aside, I seriously hope you're doing well; I'm glad you're trying to work through your vision problems. Hopefully something helps you in future, would love to see you keep painting of course. Nice to hear about the attic as well!
Take care, dude.
Yeah it is the price we pay heh. But it is a scary idea, especially for our conscious minds but there is a quote people often consider on the topic by Mark Twain. “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”
Not a bad quote.
Ahh, you just reminded me! I think it was my b/f that hasn't seen the African Queen! I better fix that!
https://youtu.be/88jytHOsDos
Nobody ever forced me to participate, and for a long time I chose not to. But one day I got curious and decided to go to church with them one sunday. The guy talking was going on and on about how if you were bad there was everlasting torment and fire and brimstone, but if you were good there was eternal peace and joy. It always struck me as bizarre, how everyone was so swayed by this guy LITERALLY threatening and then bribing people to obey. I hated it because I saw something predatory in it, and nobody else did. That, paired with the creepy ominous chanting in unison was enough to keep me far away.
I don't mind people finding security and safety in religion, if it makes you feel better then more power to you. But the church, the organization? I hate it. They prey on people's fears, you will see it the most at funerals. Family members are vulnerable, afraid that their loved ones didn't live a perfect life and might not go to heaven. The church uses that fear.
It's all a scam, just a way to control people. There is no heaven, there is no hell. It's just a big scary scarecrow to keep us in line. What happens after we die? Probably nothing. Is there anyone watching over us? Probably not. There's no guiding hand, there's no safety net, there's no purpose or reason to anything in life.
And there's nothing wrong with that, it just means that your life is more precious, because who knows what could happen to us tomorrow. Take joy wherever you can find it, enjoy someone's company while they are there, tell your mother and father you love them. Tell your best friend they mean a lot to you. Watch the ants march, stop to watch that sunset, enjoy the breeze and whenever you're in good health take a moment to enjoy it.
You never know what could happen tomorrow.
At least that’s what I believe the god of the Bible would have done if he’s so good and loving. Then again I don’t believe in such concepts since I’m an atheist though that doesn’t mean the Bible don’t have some good advice to live by~
So in the Bible, hell isn't a place for the most evil, its not infinite torture, but where judgement is carried out. Some Christians believe everyone eventually gets saved, but I don't think thats in the scriptures though I'd like it to be.
Oh I very much think there is reason for your life, purposefully made and the reason to respect it and do it well is so that it may be preserved rather than eliminated as if it never existed in the first place. I think if there is nothing after than nothing now means anything, because theres no record or judge and will ultimately be nothing but matter moving from one place to another like anything else. When every human is dead, the subjective experience of their atoms are void
See I personally know that after we die there is something, because I was already dead and then I came into existence and lived. So too after I return to death will I be thrust back into conscious life. What matters is the chance to keep living rather than go back to nothing. What I want is for people to to not see what they could have had but it became too late to do so.
I believe hell as it is traditionally taught has been used to scare people into line, surely in the medieval era, we just accepted it as proper scripture when it never was. We aren't meant to be scared into accepting Jesus, if that were the case I'm sure the Bible would have been far more clear about the nature of hell, but if it meant "cessation of existence" then the Bible is very clear about hell. Its truly the second death, not the start of your eternal life in misery.
I think most people got their ideas of hell very wrong, either its super sadistic, it doesn't exist or its a rave where everyones having a great time. In the bible its the second death.
I think anything evil is anything God considers a sin which would be anything God has forbidden. Lying, murder, theft, adultery and so on. God also looks at your character and sees if you WOULD do something given the opportunity rather, because he knows your heart and knows your intention.
I have a theory. I kind of came up with this as a joke, but it actually ended up making a lot more sense that I had originally thought. I have an argument that Evolution and creationism are both true. When you talk about the Bible, the Bible is completely written by man, and man, unlike God, is fallible. This means that the Bible can be interpreted any number of ways, sometimes in ways that are completely contradictory to the Bible itself.
My point is, when you talk about God creating the Earth in 7 days, there's a lot of things to consider. First of all, one day to God does not necessarily have to mean one day to us. think about the fact that one day refers to the Earth's rotation around itself, but before the Earth is created, there's no set definition as to what a day means. in fact, the Earth wasn't even around when the universe was created ( if you are to believe evolutionism ),but in the Bible it does say God created the heavens and the Earth. The heavens, in this context, I believe refers to the universe itself. So logically, one could assume that God created the universe first, and the Earth later, much much much later, billions of years by our standards. But to God, billions of years could feel like a day. On top of that, God creating the animals could Loosely be defined as creating the initials building blocks of life and allowing it to Bloom from there.
again, this is just a stupid idea that kind of took off on its own, but in the end of the Bible can only be as good as the people who wrote it in the people who choose to interpret it. I believe in God, but I also believe in evolution. I believe what science says about the Earth being billions of years old, and the universe older than that. One could make the argument that the “Big Bang” was just an experiment that God decided to do in his basement, “ I wonder what happens if I take all the matter and put it into one spot... oops.” God is just a teenager playing Universe Sandbox, literally. POretty sure None of us can truly say what God was or is thinking, though. I do, however, believe that people will use religion to further their own gains and control people. That will always be true for every religion. Hell, I believe, is just a form of that.
I have given up on trying to understand everything, and instead I wanted to spend my time and effort making sense of the world around me, not trying to speculate on things that we can never know in life.
Oh, you can SAY there's a correct answer if you look for it, and the answer must have such-and-such good qualities in order to be in the real direction of truth, but deep reading of scripture (any scripture) leads people to wildly different conclusions, and from this every individual on earth is supposed to suss out which of the 1,000,001 interpretations, EXACTLY, is the correct one to avoid eternal punishment? This is so absurd it is a common joke in media parodying religion that the "true faith" appears to be picked at complete random, because there is just no way to study enough to know for absolute certain its NOT.
So, if the rules are absolute, it seems odd that Jesus would throw out the law and in its place give very vague platitudes instead of a new law just as clearly binding as the old, leading to these wild speculations on what the true rules are. If the rules are not absolute, nobody can be blamed for not trying their best, even if "their best" results in exploitation, torture, and murder. Even a lot of churches admit they outright lie in their attempts to gain followers, but they convince themselves it is fine because they're doing it for the sake of God (ie, avoiding eternal punishment), and can their followers be blamed if they are tricked, especially if they're TOLD that even thinking about looking elsewhere will get them booted into hell?
If eternal punishment was somehow necessary for even a being of pure good to convince humans avoid the bad path in life, it does a terrible job at it.
Catholics seem to think that getting into heaven has to do with your body of good deeds (tell me if I'm wrong, I'm not catholic), they believe in the traditional hell but why is it then I see so many morally lax or casual Catholicism? Do they feel convinced they are just so average in life they could not possibly deserve hell because afterall, they're no mass murderer or something?
Then hellfire preachers teach you to fear your way into Gods arms, but does God really want people to choose him out of terror or to only be a good person because of the consequences? Its the shopping cart analogy, there is no reward or law that demands you must return the cart after shopping, you will not be punished for leaving it in the middle of a parking space and nobody will thank you or reward you for putting it back. So what do you do? Are you the kind of person who puts it back knowing its the right thing to do and that good things should be done without such incentives? I think God wants people to do good things out of love, not out of fear.
Please don't doubt your importance to God in the spreading of His word. We are all called in different ways and to different functions. Logos is the essence of word made flesh. The bible is merely some but not all of the work to which we are called. God is so much more than what so many of our sadly ignorant spiritual siblings will often make Him out to be. You glorify God in more ways than you realize, my friend. Even your art is one of those methods.
So I say this to all other readers as well: Don't allow others to put either God or your mind inside of a box where they can lock it away and control you.
1 Corinthians 12:12-27
12 There is one body, but it has many parts. But all its many parts make up one body. It is the same with Christ. 13 We were all baptized by one Holy Spirit. And so we are formed into one body. It didn’t matter whether we were Jews or Gentiles, slaves or free people. We were all given the same Spirit to drink. 14 So the body is not made up of just one part. It has many parts.
15 Suppose the foot says, “I am not a hand. So I don’t belong to the body.” By saying this, it cannot stop being part of the body. 16 And suppose the ear says, “I am not an eye. So I don’t belong to the body.” By saying this, it cannot stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, how could it hear? If the whole body were an ear, how could it smell? 18 God has placed each part in the body just as he wanted it to be. 19 If all the parts were the same, how could there be a body? 20 As it is, there are many parts. But there is only one body.
21 The eye can’t say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” The head can’t say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 In fact, it is just the opposite. The parts of the body that seem to be weaker are the ones we can’t do without. 23 The parts that we think are less important we treat with special honor. The private parts aren’t shown. But they are treated with special care. 24 The parts that can be shown don’t need special care. But God has put together all the parts of the body. And he has given more honor to the parts that didn’t have any. 25 In that way, the parts of the body will not take sides. All of them will take care of one another. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it. If one part is honored, every part shares in its joy.
27 You are the body of Christ. Each one of you is a part of it.
I hope thats right about giving glory to God in many ways because I often feel like I don't do it at all. My only real thing to offer is art and other creative things but I feel I've lost it all, now what can I give? I often pray to let me have it back so I can keep creating but, I wonder if there is a purpose to why this has all happened to me? I don't know.
By the way I only linked a short resource to do a quick read up on many points, my favorite is the lectures by Edward Fudge.
Oh, it's absolutely right. We glorify Him in our highest highs and sometimes even our lowest lows. I think our vulnerabilities can show others a path they had not before considered. Our spiritual wounds can reveal the most honest parts of ourselves. A view usually only seen by God. But at those times when we're hurting so much that we cannot focus on His still; quiet voice, it's that raw honesty that might trigger an insight from another sojourner.
Oh, right. I meant "read". Not "watch". So used to people posting vid clips these days. It's become a force of habit.
This is why I love reading the stuff you post. It's meaningful, it's provocative, and it makes the reader think about stuff that we haven't thought of before, or have ignored for long enough to have forgotten about it. Thank you for posting this. You're a wonderful person and I wish I could hug you in person for it. But I'm all the way up in Boston, so I'll wish you all the best with your own life's journey. I'll wish you the best in your home project. I'll wish you the best in your arts. And I'll wish you all the best in health and hope that your eye sights will turn around and get better... Oh, and I wish you lots of Twix
<3
One thing I'd like to say about what you're feeling, is that God asks to merely have faith even if you have doubts and that when a person humbles themselves before him and asks to be saved, acknowledges Jesus is lord and died for in your place, you will be saved and made a new person. You don't have to be 100% with absolute certainty but to make the step forward proclaiming Jesus and merely accepting his gift of salvation. I think this would ease your fears, because being saved is something you can absolutely have.
You're really hitting the nail on the head for a lot of points here, which are points that atheists bring up in debate with theists (particularly christians). There is no reliable, verifiable evidence for the existence of heaven, hell, or a god for that matter. All there is is scriptural books such as the bible that make claims, and believers who make claims, but none of those claims have any credible evidence to back them up. The concepts of heaven and hell in religion, especially christianity, are used as an empty promise of eternal reward and an empty threat of eternal punishment in order to influence people to start believing, and to keep them believing should they ever even think of questioning the religion.
Those empty promises and empty threats are especially effective on children. Religions always start out indoctrinating children from the youngest ages of comprehension, filling their blank slate minds with the stories of religion and telling them that the figures of the religion (the god, any savior there may be, prophets, miracle workers, etc.) actually exist not only in the past but right now. And they make the children believe that the god of the religion sees everything they do every second of every day, knows every thought, knows if there is ever any doubt, and will mercilessly punish them for all eternity in hellfire. An infinite punishment for a very finite "crime".
One thing to note is that those of whatever religion threaten those of other religions (or of no religious belief at all) with the eternal hellfire torture for not believing that religion, claiming it is the one true religion with the one true path to the one true god, a claim that pretty much every religion makes, and yet they are so convinced themselves that they are following the right religion. They never have any fears that they may have made the wrong choice of religion, or denomination within a religion (ie. baptist vs. penetcostal, for example), and will end up being sent to hell for not believing in the right god or following the right flavor of religion.
Anyway, the heaven vs. hell claim is entirely contradictory. Religions such as christianity claim that being in heaven is eternal bliss with perfect happiness. Yet at the same time, those who are there would know that at least some of their loved ones are burning in hell in excruciating pain for all eternity. So how can they be happy in heaven knowing any of that? Either they are miserable with sorrow knowing someone they love is being tortured, in which case it is not heaven and they're stuck with a deity who allows it to continue forever, or what is in heaven is a lobotomized, false version of the person who died and went there, in which case that person never really went to heaven because they've been replaced by an automaton who feels nothing for those who are burning in hell.
And what of that god who runs the show? That god, based on the definition of a deity, is infinitely knowledgeable (omniscient) and knows all things at all times, therefore would know exactly how much every individual in hell is suffering, and despite being infinitely powerful (omnipotent) continues to do absolutely nothing about it after centuries, millennia, billions, or trillions of years. I want to know how any person of any religion could continue to worship or believe in such an infinitely atrocious being. Those who are the most religious claim to actually love that deity, when in reality they are terrified of that deity. When it comes to nonbelievers, theists blame the nonbeliever for "not having enough faith" (which by definition is belief in something despite a total lack of evidence supporting it or in spite of all evidence against it), when in all reality the nonbeliever doesn't believe because there is insufficient evidence to convince the individual that a god exists at all. If a god actually does exist but actively chooses to keep his/her/its existence hidden and not provide any sort of tangible or verifiable evidence, resulting in millions of people who either give up their religion or never believed it in the first place (or to follow a different religion with a different god), then the blame lies entirely on that god. For that god to condemn the nonbeliever to eternal torture in fire when all it would have taken would be solid evidence to prove to the person without question that the god exists, that would be infinite cruelty from an infinitely evil deity.
I won't question your motivations for staying in the religion at all or continuing to believe it; that's between you and whatever information you have that has convinced you that it's true. But I do commend you for actually looking into it and realizing the denomination you were in was promoting belief in something terrible.
Personally, I was raised catholic. I was brought to church from the youngest age and made to go through 12 years of catholic school with mass twice a week (Sunday regular, and again on Friday during school). One of the main messages they pounded into everyone's head, whether from the pulpit in church or in the daily religion class, was that we were all worthless sinners condemned to hell and that we'd better grovel for forgiveness (even if we hadn't actually done anything more than being born) or else we'd burn for all eternity. I distinctly remember one night as a young kid, maybe 8 years old or so, laying in bed at night crying because I was thinking about how one day I would die and have to face god/Jesus and would be judged and condemned to burn in hell forever. It scared the shit out of me, which is exactly what the religion wanted in order to keep me believing. Thankfully about the age of 12 I started to think for myself, question things, and realized how confusing and made up it all seemed. By the age of 15 I was fully atheist and dropped out of confirmation because I just couldn't go on pretending that I believed it any more.
The more I have read and learned about the universe and natural world from science, the more I have been convinced that it is natural processes following the laws of physics that caused the universe to come into existence and life to begin through abiogenesis and evolve throughout time to the species we have today, and the more I'm convinced that no god was necessary for any of that to happen. And the more I read in text and watch in videos about religion, the bible, the arguments of christian apologetics, and the debates of atheism vs. theism, the more I see that religion is nothing more than the perpetuated stories made up by primitive people millennia ago who were trying to make sense of a world that they had very little knowledge about. (Plus, I keep learning about more and more atrocious and/or bizarre stories in the bible that 12 years of religion class never taught.)
What my 45 years has taught me is that there is no god there to ask forgiveness from, and nothing to ask that god forgiveness for. The only ones I ask forgiveness from are those who really exist in the real world who I have wronged. Some are deceased and I can't ask their forgiveness, but for those who are still around the best I can do is try to make things right. Those who actually exist in our reality are who matter, not an invisible boogeyman in the sky.
On a side note, I hope you're able to find some kind of treatment for your vision. Have you visited several doctors and gotten the same prognosis? I'm really wishing you all the best so that you don't lose your eyesight any more and can hopefully get it improved.
I have no doubt God exists, I have no interest in the behavior of church or church run governments throughout time and their tactics, all I know is me and what I observe and what message signals true. My denomination actually has not changed, I just simply disagree with their assessment of the Bible and believe them to be wrong on this issue, afraid to question it as its so longstanding and default that to change it would feel like taking whiteout to the Bible itself which no Christian dare do.
I usually hear the atheist story beginning from Catholicism. I'm no catholic and believe them to have it very wrong when it comes to the relationship between man and God. I think no one needs a better symbol of that than the political dictates of a jewel shrouded man in a walled city that is paraded above all of us like he were Jesus himself.
I'm baptist in that I was baptized, though I don't think someone needs to be dunked in water to be saved. I don't share a conflicted past about my beliefs, all my family are Christians, I've not turned away from it but only strengthened my belief by taking a look at the spectacle and marvel of space, human consciousness and the inconceivable minutia that makes up the smallest components of reality. I look at it all and see God.
Also if God doesn't exists, how twix exists? Checkm8
Honestly, whatever path you follow in life, I wish you happiness and the knowledge that you as an individual are priceless.
They put me on lamotrigine and I'm both terrified of this medication and terrified to not take it.
The article also says other medication options are acetazolamide and verapamil, so if you're afraid of the side effects of the lamotrigine then maybe those would be a better option to ask the doctor about.
*hugs* Best of luck to you.
The risk is, I'm 100% certain medication gave this to me in the first place, I was put on SSRI's and this is most people common story. They were given SSRI's, got these symptoms, they never went away. So I wont take an SSRI, what if it made it worse? I was going to try Gabapentin but my doctor told me its a controlled substance because yet again, people on drugs abused it for their drug use and now I'm screwed. I don't know if it could have helped but it was listed as helping some people
Tell you the truth, if someone offered me a trillion dollars and keep my vision the way it is or cure my vision and get nothing, I wouldn't even hesitate. Cure my vision. I can only hope and pray.
I'm very sorry you're dealing with vision problems like that, particularly the smearing and negative images. Vision is such an important sense for us to have, it's devastating to lose it. My mom has been getting monthly injections into her retina to slow down or reverse macular degeneration, because she's already blind in the other eye. If she loses the sight she still has, her independence in life is destroyed. Hang in there...hopefully the doctors can figure something out to help.
Well I guess I'll see how Lamotrigine works out and hope I don't get a life threatening rash, maybe something else will work. Maybe they'll come up with an actual treatment. Afterall there are some studies happening down, real research that wasn't happening 12 years ago when I developed this.
I really want to paint again.
Ah, there it is! I was reading this and thinking that it's rare that people come towards this with such an in-depth post without having had gone through it themselves. My partner was raised strict mormon, and he, as a very analytical and clever person, had a horrible childhood full of abandonment for questioning religion and how exactly specific things worked. He now says the quickest way to become an atheist is to read the bible. (I'm not sure if he's quoting somebody else there or not.) He is equally as passionate when it comes to trying to have in-depth religious conversations, and I truly believe it comes from a place of wanting to at least help one or two people he speaks to, to find a path that works for them that doesn't necessarily have to be tied to a god or a religion.
I was going to mention a similar point, to the OP (and of course, no offense meant at all! I myself have generally always been an atheist, aside from one period in childhood where I felt social pressure that I 'should' have some religion, so after going through many, (at the time,a s a young teenager) buddhism seemed to make the most sense. But, I quickly realized I didn't need a religion. Anyways:
"Knowing this has helped me to feel closer to God, I'm failing him terribly, I'm failing at my own life terribly, but I think that being saved causes a constant strife within you to not feel comfortable in your life the way you are and look for the things in it to better and be more in line with God. I think if I struggle with this at all, then I must be hearing God speaking to me. "
This in particular is what pains me about religion -- children get raised to have this great deep-set guilt and underlying fear of doing the 'wrong' things, and it carries forward into adulthood causing people a lot of strife and pain. My specific problem with it comes into human sexuality - because as a former biologist (and still someone very interested in the sciences), (and I'll keep this light if I can), it's so natural for humans to have sexual feelings, but with many religious beliefs, young people, in the height of their body making hormones, are led to believe that they are somehow wrong for having any kind of sexual feelings that might be seen as inappropriate. It's SO normal, but it's so demonized.
Anyways, I know some people find great comfort in religion and it's certainly everyone's right, even if it may not have been truly their choice, to hold religious beliefs. I just hope that people who do, find a place of happiness and comfort from believing in a god instead of a deep-seated unease of always failing or not being made right, etc.
"I've not turned away from it but only strengthened my belief by taking a look at the spectacle and marvel of space, human consciousness and the inconceivable minutia that makes up the smallest components of reality. I look at it all and see God. " On this we agree; life is immensely unbelievable and incredible and just mind-blowing in ways that set you to the floor sometimes trying to imagine the how, and why, and just the immensity of it all. I am coming to it from a purely analytical and scientific standpoint (and I don't think from where you approach the wonder of existence is any less valid than any other, when it comes to the immense feelings they invoke) and it still never ceases to amaze. Sometimes I just look at my hand and how incredible it is to even exist, or think about how we're hurtling through space, and our short lives within it, and it just blows my mind.
Anyways, it's not my intent to question anyone's faith or feelings; I'm just sharing my own thoughts on certain aspects of it. I hope whatever your path or what you believe is right, it leads you to contentment and happiness. :)
I don't quite understand why you're pouncing on that detail as if it's some dirty little secret that got revealed. That's just a part of my life story. I could have just as easily been a methodist or a snake handler. Catholicism is only one of about 40,000 varieties of christianity. My brother was also raised catholic and while he left catholicism, he is still quite religious with one of the other flavors of christian.
The quote your mate says about reading the bible being the quickest way to becoming an atheist is a rather common saying among the atheist community. Penn Gillette has said it, and so have several of the hosts of the weekly call-in show "The Atheist Experience" (you can find them on youtube; they used to be on public access cable when that was still a thing). Some atheists read the bible when they were formerly christians looking for reason and evidence to believe the things they were told to believe, and some read it simply because they'd never read it in full and always relied on the stories taught to them in Sunday school, religious school, or from the pulpit in church. What they end up taking away from it is that there is no sound reasoning or evidence to believe what they believe, and that there is a great deal of atrocious things in the bible that was never taught to them (church and Sunday school gloss over those things and stick to the fluff), and that all the descriptions of the god of the bible based on what the stories say he said, commanded, judged, or did show him to be an absolute abomination.
Over the years as I've watched countless videos from that show TAE, debates between atheists and christians, satirical videos that make fun of the bible, or simply people doing a monolog talking about their perspective as an atheist and bringing up biblical passages, there have been a ton of stories in it that I learned for the first time that were never taught in all those years of church and religion class. Whenever there's a chapter and verse referenced, I look it up and sure enough, those things are in there. Church and religion class never taught us about Elisha calling on his god to send 2 bears to maul children who made fun of his bald head, or how Lot offered his two virgin daughters to a gang of rapists so they wouldn't rape the angels who were visiting him, or that entire soft porn Genesis 38 thing that gets censored out of kids' bibles, to name a few examples.
Very true about religion demonizing sex, sexuality, sex drive, and the pleasures of sex. It's as natural of a need as our hunger for food, but religion so often dictates that sex must be between two married people of the opposite sex for the sole purpose of reproduction and that any other kind of sex is appalling and sinful as blowing a load on the baby Jesus in the manger. When I discovered masturbation around the age of 12 as puberty lit the fuse on my sex drive, while it always felt good to do it, as soon as it was done I felt terrible guilt like I'd broken some commandment and was going to burn in hell for it. But a day or two later the undeniable need for it built again and the cycle started all over. Ridding myself of religious beliefs and all the associated fear and guilt had the benefit of allowing me to actually enjoy sexual pleasure fully. (On a related note, the sex education of a religious school was absolutely abysmal. It was so bad, i twas about 2 years after the grade school sex ed classes that I finally learned that the scrotum was in fact not the urinary bladder and that girls in fact did not have them. That's how bad the lack of information was, that prevented me from clearing up the misconceptions I had from a very young age.)
I agree in not wanting to take away the comfort people have in their religion. All I'd ask of a religious person is to be courageous enough to question their beliefs and the tenets of their religion, and to look as objectively as they can for what evidence they have that actually supports their beliefs and their religion's claims of a god, savior, etc. If in the end after making an honest inquiry into it they decide the information they have is convincing enough for them to continue believing then fine, at least they tried. But if they realize that their beliefs are unfounded and there is no evidence, I hope they continue to be courageous enough to let it go and be happy with no longer believing.
My avatar a flaming demon should set the foreshadow to this.
I'm an agnostic nihilist atheist or simply put I don't believe and don't think mere mortals can know with certainty as we currently are. Maybe someday if we ever meet powerful beings in the universe. But the issue here stems from the very beginning with all this. God is not an answer but an intermediary to the understanding of the universe itself. The more questions you answer the more questions pop up generally destroying what science has told us is or isn't which is great for our understanding.
Staying on topic Hell as it is described by many people is an outright abomination to any sort of moral justice and even as described here. My question here is why is eternal heaven or oblivion my only two options? Why not just put me in a corner somewhere or allow me some power to traverse the cosmos on my own if I'm so incompatible with their idea of heaven?
I dunno there's a lot that I could ask but there isn't a man or woman alive that could convince me of a god. I don't doubt the possibility of a powerful entity in the universe, it's outright massive so it be foolish to assume someone or something out there has a better command and understanding of the cosmos than we could imagine. But that in itself does not make them worthy of worship nor does them simply being here reason to condemn me and others to hell because they say so.
There is no true right or wrong. Just rules and those with the power to enforce them sentient or not.
I feel that looking into the absolute creation point of the very fabric of existence screams "GOD", because I can see no other possibility. To have been created, to have anything exist, for the dimensional construct of mathematics, even the blank void of absolute nothing we conjure in our minds to just imagine nothing, must then be a precursor of intent and power and purpose and I would not only call that God but believe that God to be the God of the Bible.
God said let there be light and in an instant, everything that ever has or ever will exist spontaneously burst into being. Thats what I put beyond our dimensional realities inception, the beyond, the how, the why, the explanation to me seems so clear.
I know religious people don't tend to like Richard Dawkins since he's a very vocal atheist, coming from a background in science and analytical thinking, but he said this quote that I was going to say, but I didn't want to just claim I made it up or anything. "“We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.” " :)
(On a personal note, I had one such blinding, flooring moment of clarity, almost like a religious experience, after reading 'The Selfish Gene', (by the same author) when I was younger. I was heavy into biology and when I read that book, explaining a lot of things behind evolution and genetics, it connected some things I never truly fully understood before.. and I literally had to put the book down in a moment of realization. I don't know why I'm talking about this other than just marvelling about how thinking about life can really blow your mind; and the fact that I tend to ramble on too much. I certainly don't want to come into your post and talk about religion in a way that's derogatory in any way; I just felt compelled to share thoughts on the whole subject in case someone is here reading this and on the fence, and doesn't realize there are other ways through life vs what we were brought up believing. I certainly don't aim to convince you of anything belief-wise and I could certainly not be convinced to believe in a god, either (unless there was suddenly evidence of a god that stood up to scrutiny - then, yea, I'm all for it!)
Heck, I wish I could live for eternity in heaven. I can just hope I'm not right about religion, and that my lack of belief won't end me in some hell-like place for eternity instead. Or, I can hope that my good will towards others and kind life, despite not believing in a god, might end me there, but for me, I'm not too worried. :)
I was brought up believing, despite being probably the best-behaved kid I knew and most certainly trying my best at every turn, that I was wrong and incapable and dumb and unloveable - and thankfully, I realized, even though it was damaging and tough, that there are ways through those deep-set beliefs into adulthood, IF those beliefs are detrimental to you. If you have belief in a god and all it does is make you feel comforted and not alone and that you get to hang out with cool cats on Sundays and have potlucks and feel great about your life, then all power to you! :D If you have a deep-set belief, whatever it is, and it's detrimental to your mental health and interferes negatively with your life, that's then called a mental illness and there is treatment and therapy for that.
Like, as a kid, I liked to imagine I had 3 different spirits in me, that I called 'demons' (negative religious connotations, I know, but that's beside the point, call them what you want; muses, imaginary friends, whatever), and each one was ascribed a certain animal and a certain aspect of my personality. I knew, objectively, this was all in my head, but I enjoyed the fantasy of it, and it became something I used to represent my feelings and my self and all that. If I had ever got to the point where I would claim they were speaking to me, or that I really thought my mind was controlled by 3 demons, or they told me to burn my house down or something, that would be considered a mental illness. Same thing when people do nutbar things in the name of a god that they truly, really believe, is in their head speaking to them. Our minds are amazing; we can feel amazing things and truly believe them with all of our core. I could sit down right now and imagine things, and maybe the idea of a thought would come to my head, and I could think it came from god, or the devil, or a split personality, or the manifestation of my left brain or something. No matter how much I believe it, it doesn't make that thing objectively true, other than inside my own head where my beliefs lie. I am open to the idea that there could be a god, if evidence suggested (like, if a god came down right now and said 'hey, stop eating shrimp or I'll burn down half the earth' and then that came to pass, you'd better believe I'd be willing to believe that god existed, but I think sometimes people are so convinced from a young age that a god DOES run the universe, that they don't actually get the chance to look at it objectively and think 'hey, what if we were wrong about this?' So, I guess, after that long ramble (and I know, I'm a random person on the internet randomly compelled to converse to you on your own thread), that I appreciate that you're thinking and questioning, and finding something that makes YOU happier as a result. Whether or not some random person on the internet agrees with your belief system is irrelevant; it's just neat that you're open to exploring religion in a way that makes your life better instead of keeping you stuck in something that might make it worse. (Like the belief in traditional hell)
Hope your day is a good one and that I didn't say anything unwarranted or offensive - that's definitely not my intention. I suppose I have no real intention other than to try and forge a bridge that might, in some way, help someone a tiny bit, or at very least, just be moderately amusing or valid to someone out there.
It seems so much more incorrect to believe all of this has existed infinitely with nothing behind it, no one to create it, no one to design it, no one to set it in motion, because if that is the case then our dimension is itself God with all the power and omnipresence and omnipotence that the God of the Bible has. But that should be observable if thats the case. Since God is a 3rd party to our dimensional reality, hes not constrained by it as our universe would be constrained by its own laws it would have to violate in order to exist and self create.
I'm not going to try to make you believe it, but this is just my belief. I don't share the disdain for religion many have, when people blame religion, they're blaming humanity, I see religion as something that rescues us from our inhumanity and creates order and structure, unfortunately of course I believe naturally all but one are wrong. So some religions can be built on absolute corruption, power thirst and poison. Kim Jong Un is actually a kind of religion but born from total government control and abuse. North Korea is a prime example of the human corruption that doesn't necessitate religion but the human corruption in itself becomes a religion to itself.
With the Richard Dawkins quote, my view on that is, the jump from one God to no Gods is massively disproportionate to the jump from 100 Gods to 1 God. Its a much greater leap to discard that last final God than it is to discard all of the ones that clutter up the one true God who would naturally have to be, we're likely not a collab between Buddha, Jesus, Zeus and Ra afterall.
Believe me that I do not believe in this because I was born and made too, I'm not a shallow thinker, I don't blindly accept. Scrutiny has only strengthened my belief. I think we are made to look up at the stars and instinctively find God in the crippling brilliance and magnitude that it represents, not because we don't know what any of it is, but because finding out what it is only further demonstrates it.
We're the tiniest things, we're on a giant ball spinning around in synchronicity with other even larger balls in an endless void that contains absolutely everything which is more than we could possibly conceive, yet it contains mostly nothing because the space it occupies is so incomprehensibly large. It is so absurd that we would only accept it because we have too, because its out reality. We somehow make it mundane like its just some given thing we take for granted. When I start thinking about it, whats at the end of infinity, how can it be so large, what could have created it, where did it come from, the nature of my own consciousness, the question of why about anything, I always come back to God, not as a crutch because I don't understand but because its so clear to me.
"but the human corruption in itself becomes a religion to itself. " Agreed; people will certainly follow terrible things in the right mindset.
Two books that affected my outlook very much were Evolution 2.0 by Perry Marshall, and more recently, something called the Urantia Book.
1.) As kid I was hurting, desperate, thus very eager to learn from God and be a good Christian. But I got tired encoding some scripture that didn't even get nature right or my thoughts, my questions... I tried so hard to take it serious and at face value and ignore my blasphemous doubts and all the obvious contradictions. It was taxing. As if the parent that abandoned me had left a note I was supposed to abide my whole life by before I could even properly read, and said parent in return didn't even bother to ever get to know me. So I moved on. As adult learning of germanic beliefs I also realised: Even if I'm no real pagan and even if it's a slim connection - I have more connection to the tribal people who walked the same ground I stand on today. The Bible not only fixed in time, it talks about deserts, palm branches and the likes... Stuff that I'm in no context to. For me, that really suddenly made it comically visible how that book fails to acknowledge my life reality. Not only didn't Christianity help me at all to understand the world, sort out my life or feel understood or safe - I also refused to be sanctioned with hell for misinterpreting such an out of touch scripture.
2.) Additionally, scripture is not only limited. It is relative and very human. The germanic/norse people are said to have believed of Hel as a neutral place or in worst case a cold place! A not so fancy alternative afterlife to Valhalla. But not a bad place intended to punish people for sins. A few hundred years after the supposed life of Jesus, some germanic leaders adopted Christianity and made it their goal to spread it with their reign. Christianity changed the idea of their afterlife, but the name Hel basically lived on. A lot of old stuff just lived on like that, leading to what is now fairytale folklore. The old stuff that specifically stood in the way of Christianity or opposed it's ideals got propagandised into demons and devils. Hel changed from being a cold place to being a hot place rife with eternal punishment for rejecting the Christian ways. For me, personally, knowing this story disenchanted the concept of hell for me. It had evolved with propaganda. Then add some transcriptions and translations into the mix. Which is now the valid hell? Non Christian ideas of hell are of course easily dismissed as just wrong. But if what the scripture says is so incredibly essential, knowing history better today, shouldn't Christians even stop reading translated bibles at all and rather seek out what was written before it entered Europe? Go as close to original place and time as they can? Or is that then entering Jewish or even Muslim territory and not valid anymore if you go too far back? I'm admittedly not educated on how that split bwtween monotheistic religions happened, so the question might be stupid.
Anyway, all those untouchable intangible huge religious ideas in the end seem to have evolved just historically, worldly, profane after all. Just like popculture media and it's idols.