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My stance on cub art and pedophilia.
16 years ago
You know, there's something about some subjects that makes people just not want to discuss them. It's too uncomfortable, too difficult to work outside of one's preconcieved notions. If you don't like to think, to challenge your own opinions against the possibility that you might actually learn something, then I have nothing to teach you. But if you're willing to sit down and seriously give this some thought, I can almost guarantee I'll give you something interesting to consider.
Recently, the UK has passed a law banning not just child porn, but drawn porn of children, even if they are obviously not human.
Now, I'm offended by the idea that anyplace has a law where I would be able to draw something illegal. I should never be able to do that. EVER. That is thought crime the likes of which summon fascism to mind- and do not try to downplay this with accusations of hyperbole, because the parallels can be found in the lowest of minutiae. But even if we want to go beyond that, I'll still take on this subject.
Let's get this big ugly question out right away, shall we? Ahem.
Q: Is sexual conduct with underdeveloped people morally wrong?
My answer: Yes. Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes. It is wrong, because it traumatizes the individual in question- they aren't ready for that type of thing to happen to them yet, and there's no way for them to even enjoy it. It's one of the most terrible things you can do to somebody, and you can't even fathom the damages you'll have caused them. This is true of the 12 year old who grew up with the Disney Channel, the good little Christian Boy who was never taught what a clitoris was, the self-esteemless Party Girl who gets used as a scorecard by morons who at the same time call her a whore and demand her services, and the Lowly Geek who grew up without enough friends to understand what a relationship was.
But then, I'm getting off track, aren't I? This is, after all, about pedophilia. The attraction toward children. We've fairly well established that the real life enaction of this fetish is a terrible thing, and should be prevented at all costs. Right? Right.
Well, first we have to understand why fetishes exist. I've personally been researching this for years, now, and near as I can tell, they are almost always closely linked to the developmental processes of the people who harbor them. Most often, they're developed in childhood, for various reasons.
Let's say you were humiliated a lot as a child. Your parents, while well meaning, took the joke too far and often made you feel awful for things that were not your fault- tripping, dropping a soda pop, something anyone could've done. You beat yourself up over this for years. Suddenly, one day your brain swoops in and says, "No more! You might still get humiliated in real life, but I can create a safe harbor where this embarassment you keep replaying in your mind can be enjoyed. I'll just link it to sexual pleasure!" And suddenly, voila, you have a humiliation fetish. You really get off on fictional situations of being embarassed for laughably inconsequential things.
How about another example? As a kid, your parents give you no choices. No ability to act, no responsibilities to hold. They suffocate you with bonds of authority, forcing you to sit still and stew in this hell where you can't control anything. One day, that brain of yours says, "Holy cow, we need some release or we're gonna stress ourselves to death! How about you just relax and imagine a world where you get to be in control? Where everybody has to do everything you say, and nobody can make a move if you don't say so? And hey, while we're at it, let's imagine they really really like doing what you say! We'll connect that to the sexual pleasure receptors so it's easy to indulge for long periods." Presto, you have a domination fetish.
And just to prove to you that I'm serious about all this, here's a more personal story. As a child, I was afraid of my mother's breasts- no joke. They were rather big, and for some reason, I was convinced that every time anything touched them, it hurt her. So convinced I was of this, I refused to even hug her many times, to her great confusion. As I grew a little older, I kept hearing girls complaining about how their budding breasts caused them pain from bouncing and were sensitive to the touch. All of this culminated in my being afraid of ever coming in contact with breasts, lest I hurt the poor woman they were attached to. Of course, my brain came in and said, "Sorry, buddy, but puberty's coming up quick, and you need to get over your fear of physical contact. Instead of hitting the fear and loathing buttons, I'm gonna flip your switches in the absolute opposite direction, and make you love breasts! You're gonna want to grab them, bounce them, jiggle them, squish them... and while we're at it, the bigger, the better! If they're huge, obvious and impossible to not come in contact with, then that's perfect. Okay, kiddo?" And bam, this is where my breast fetish comes from.
Now, understand that these aren't the only ways fetishes can be developed. Maybe you got the wrong impression of what was important in life, maybe you had a weird experience that you were too young to remember. There are any number of reasons why these things might pop up in your life, but the important thing to remember is that they are all there for you to release feelings that you have no other vent for. And the reality is that way more people have fetishes than you think- they just don't express them as overtly as someone like myself might.
Knowing that people have feelings they have to vent somehow, and knowing that the fetish is a release valve for these feelings, what is the most responsible thing to do if you have, say, a gore fetish? Or a rape fetish? Going out and committing crimes is a terrible thing to do for the sake of release, and is most likely only going to get you in much more stressful situations, not to mention traumatizing other people. And porn might be okay for most things, but in your case, it took victimizing someone to make that porn. So, faced with this decision between bottling up these feelings harmfully, possibly leading to severe consequences, and victimizing people passively for your own pleasure, what can you do?
Imagine. Create. Write, draw, animate, MAKE things! And even better, find other people who have these fetishes, and recruit them to do so as well. If the people in this are imaginary, there's no possibility of abuse. You're free to indulge all you'd like, at the cost of the materials with which you and others create.
This is true of every fetish. Creating imaginary people to act out these fantasies not only lets you release these feelings you might not want to share with other people in your life, it helps you easily separate fantasy and reality, because they exist on two different planes.
So in the end, why is pedophilia any different? We don't choose what fetishes we develop, mostly because we're often not even old enough to realize what's going on.
And isn't that the point of all this? Protecting people that couldn't know better? You can tell somebody that they need to see a psychiatrist, but ultimately this frontier science still has a bad track record of doing more harm than good through harmful drugs, lies and indifference. It's risky to get treatment, and most things still aren't curable- I and many, many others have the scars to prove it. You can't remove a fetish with a pill. It doesn't work. And often, therapy only helps you identify what happened- it's not a surgical tool to remove your personality.
Ultimately, there is nothing productive to come of vilifying others for their preferences. You didn't live their life, and you have no idea why they enjoy what they do. And if you take away their ability to relieve themselves in a safe environment...
Well, that only really puts more innocent people in danger in the real world, now doesn't it?
Recently, the UK has passed a law banning not just child porn, but drawn porn of children, even if they are obviously not human.
Now, I'm offended by the idea that anyplace has a law where I would be able to draw something illegal. I should never be able to do that. EVER. That is thought crime the likes of which summon fascism to mind- and do not try to downplay this with accusations of hyperbole, because the parallels can be found in the lowest of minutiae. But even if we want to go beyond that, I'll still take on this subject.
Let's get this big ugly question out right away, shall we? Ahem.
Q: Is sexual conduct with underdeveloped people morally wrong?
My answer: Yes. Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes. It is wrong, because it traumatizes the individual in question- they aren't ready for that type of thing to happen to them yet, and there's no way for them to even enjoy it. It's one of the most terrible things you can do to somebody, and you can't even fathom the damages you'll have caused them. This is true of the 12 year old who grew up with the Disney Channel, the good little Christian Boy who was never taught what a clitoris was, the self-esteemless Party Girl who gets used as a scorecard by morons who at the same time call her a whore and demand her services, and the Lowly Geek who grew up without enough friends to understand what a relationship was.
But then, I'm getting off track, aren't I? This is, after all, about pedophilia. The attraction toward children. We've fairly well established that the real life enaction of this fetish is a terrible thing, and should be prevented at all costs. Right? Right.
Well, first we have to understand why fetishes exist. I've personally been researching this for years, now, and near as I can tell, they are almost always closely linked to the developmental processes of the people who harbor them. Most often, they're developed in childhood, for various reasons.
Let's say you were humiliated a lot as a child. Your parents, while well meaning, took the joke too far and often made you feel awful for things that were not your fault- tripping, dropping a soda pop, something anyone could've done. You beat yourself up over this for years. Suddenly, one day your brain swoops in and says, "No more! You might still get humiliated in real life, but I can create a safe harbor where this embarassment you keep replaying in your mind can be enjoyed. I'll just link it to sexual pleasure!" And suddenly, voila, you have a humiliation fetish. You really get off on fictional situations of being embarassed for laughably inconsequential things.
How about another example? As a kid, your parents give you no choices. No ability to act, no responsibilities to hold. They suffocate you with bonds of authority, forcing you to sit still and stew in this hell where you can't control anything. One day, that brain of yours says, "Holy cow, we need some release or we're gonna stress ourselves to death! How about you just relax and imagine a world where you get to be in control? Where everybody has to do everything you say, and nobody can make a move if you don't say so? And hey, while we're at it, let's imagine they really really like doing what you say! We'll connect that to the sexual pleasure receptors so it's easy to indulge for long periods." Presto, you have a domination fetish.
And just to prove to you that I'm serious about all this, here's a more personal story. As a child, I was afraid of my mother's breasts- no joke. They were rather big, and for some reason, I was convinced that every time anything touched them, it hurt her. So convinced I was of this, I refused to even hug her many times, to her great confusion. As I grew a little older, I kept hearing girls complaining about how their budding breasts caused them pain from bouncing and were sensitive to the touch. All of this culminated in my being afraid of ever coming in contact with breasts, lest I hurt the poor woman they were attached to. Of course, my brain came in and said, "Sorry, buddy, but puberty's coming up quick, and you need to get over your fear of physical contact. Instead of hitting the fear and loathing buttons, I'm gonna flip your switches in the absolute opposite direction, and make you love breasts! You're gonna want to grab them, bounce them, jiggle them, squish them... and while we're at it, the bigger, the better! If they're huge, obvious and impossible to not come in contact with, then that's perfect. Okay, kiddo?" And bam, this is where my breast fetish comes from.
Now, understand that these aren't the only ways fetishes can be developed. Maybe you got the wrong impression of what was important in life, maybe you had a weird experience that you were too young to remember. There are any number of reasons why these things might pop up in your life, but the important thing to remember is that they are all there for you to release feelings that you have no other vent for. And the reality is that way more people have fetishes than you think- they just don't express them as overtly as someone like myself might.
Knowing that people have feelings they have to vent somehow, and knowing that the fetish is a release valve for these feelings, what is the most responsible thing to do if you have, say, a gore fetish? Or a rape fetish? Going out and committing crimes is a terrible thing to do for the sake of release, and is most likely only going to get you in much more stressful situations, not to mention traumatizing other people. And porn might be okay for most things, but in your case, it took victimizing someone to make that porn. So, faced with this decision between bottling up these feelings harmfully, possibly leading to severe consequences, and victimizing people passively for your own pleasure, what can you do?
Imagine. Create. Write, draw, animate, MAKE things! And even better, find other people who have these fetishes, and recruit them to do so as well. If the people in this are imaginary, there's no possibility of abuse. You're free to indulge all you'd like, at the cost of the materials with which you and others create.
This is true of every fetish. Creating imaginary people to act out these fantasies not only lets you release these feelings you might not want to share with other people in your life, it helps you easily separate fantasy and reality, because they exist on two different planes.
So in the end, why is pedophilia any different? We don't choose what fetishes we develop, mostly because we're often not even old enough to realize what's going on.
And isn't that the point of all this? Protecting people that couldn't know better? You can tell somebody that they need to see a psychiatrist, but ultimately this frontier science still has a bad track record of doing more harm than good through harmful drugs, lies and indifference. It's risky to get treatment, and most things still aren't curable- I and many, many others have the scars to prove it. You can't remove a fetish with a pill. It doesn't work. And often, therapy only helps you identify what happened- it's not a surgical tool to remove your personality.
Ultimately, there is nothing productive to come of vilifying others for their preferences. You didn't live their life, and you have no idea why they enjoy what they do. And if you take away their ability to relieve themselves in a safe environment...
Well, that only really puts more innocent people in danger in the real world, now doesn't it?
I can never find a damn thing on the internet, thanks to all of the inaccurate and inappropriate tagging.
The childhood development of fetishes does have some anecdotal evidence to me - I theorize that I developed my heart fetish from childhood, technically, when I was fascinated by the heart. I remember as a kid running around wearing a stethoscope, just to hear my heart beating fast. It gave me a certain pleasure even then. It didn't really crystallize into an actual fetish until some time after puberty though, as I grew older and began to experience sexual urges. At first it was just a heartbeat fetish, really, getting a sexual thrill from listening in. It didn't really become full-blown until, oddly, an act of online revenge backfired - I wound up getting aroused by having my heart torn out, of all the insane things. The fetish really only grew from there...
I do sort of wonder how I managed to gain my other fetishes though, as I don't have any clear recollection of how I gained them in childhood. Intriguing...
I am really intrigued by your interest, though. I've always sort of wondered how that came to be.
Don't worry tho, I imagine that I won't try and imbue you with that sort of fetish, since nothing in your background really predisposes you to enjoying it. *chuckle* Best to stick with massive splooging cocks and hypertitties! XD
Washington DC has the strictest gun law AND fallowed by the highest Extreme gun crime. Yet Maine just up the way has some of the lowest gun laws and lowest gun crime next to Montana.
If you are going to jail for drawing as if you had actually done it.... what's going to stop them from actually doing it instead of their fantasy?
Granted, this was up in canada, but still the fact that they can and DID do it is just....WTF?
http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottaw...../11570841.html
joking aside, quality journal.
...
So if I understand this right.
My GTS-fetish could be something developed from my fear of heights?
What's that?
But as I said before, there are lots of branches to the GTS fetish, and GTS often ends up working it's way into other fetishes, so it all depends realy.
I agree with most of what you say though. If nobody is harmed (and how can someone be, in a drawing? :P) then there shouldn't be a law against it. It's ridiculous.
i was 6, i some how hit puberty early and i found a pron mag, i mean like ones with big breasts, and i got turned on, as i gone to middle school 5 years later, girls complained that big plump girls get the majority of the guys than they do, and they wanted some boobs and well made and plump bodies, and the big plump girls complained on the boobs being alittle heavy, so i dated some lean and like....BBB breasted girls. the pressure of my mom and dad and my mom being a sexy plump woman herself, gave me the well endowed, and plump body mix for me, but i try to not get this fetish to control my life, but i do have my urges, i mean who can't let one's self to stop the fetish completely, even girls that are afraid of sex at the ages of 8 turn into sex goddesses when they hit puberty, your right Nori.....nothing can stop our fetishs no matter what gender we are
so true, I kinda related my own theories of fetishes too, yours seems very plausible too XD
But let's break this down some more.
In any situation where you have these laws that try to ban a 'bad thing' you have two classes of people. Those who wouldn't do the bad thing anyways and those that will. We'll call those 'good people' and 'bad people'. The ban doesn't do anything to really good people. They wouldn't have done anything anyways. It also doesn't do anything to the really bad people - they're just going to do it anyways. The interesting stuff happens at the border between good and bad.
After the ban is started, some good people near that border may have been bad people before the ban. The ban is enough to keep them from doing the bad thing. These people are really the whole reason the ban was put into place. Unfortunately, there's also good people who after the ban become bad. When you make something illegal you essentially take all activity that you just made illegal lawless. Since everyone participating in the illegal activity is doing something illegal you lose the entire judicial system. You can't take someone to court for stealing your illegal drugs without both of you going to jail for having illegal drugs. There's history to back this one up - prohibition of alcohol in the US is a big glaring example of why this is a Bad Thing to Do.
So my question to you (if you made it this far) is this: do you think for the drawn child porn ban, the number of bad->good people is less than the number of good->bad people? A lot of the defense of these things (aside from morality pleas) comes from people who say that otherwise upstanding citizens will stumble across some pedo drawing and immediately become so twisted by the sight that they'll go out the next day and rape every child they see (you can tell from the hyperbole how much faith I place in this notion.)
tl;dr: I too wish you could +fav journals.
On the other hand the "people getting twisted by images" argument, though those who tend to use it publicly tend to give it too much weight to use the resulting panic for the rest of their agenda, has some point when it comes to people who are still in development and could develop a fetish as a result from seeing these images. Advertising of any kind works because of comparable mechanics after all.
Of course those people in development usually are not in legal age to view porn in the first place. So the core problem lies less in law and more in law enforcement.
It seems easier and cheaper to politicians to outlaw the questionable matter than to take care that the current laws are taken care of. Which, admittedly, would be more work.
Of course most people believe when a law gets passed it also gets enforced properly, so passing the law is very effective way to catch votes for the next election, which may be the core motivation for the related politicians.
Concerning the politicians, it reminds me much at the debate about banning violent video games in Germany after a guy running amok last year.
My personal opinion is that you will get a temporarily stronger good->bad turn with people, though a much smaller one than with animal porn.
There will be something that will look like a "bad->good" turn concerning the newly outlawed drawings, which in fact will be a "good->bad" turn towards other sites and various software to mask online activities.
Actual enforcement of the law will be rather low since they are way busy enough with fighting the real child porn rings.
Instead of passing laws that will do more harm than good if anybody actually care about them they should rather invest more resources and international communication in fighting the real crime.
Call me paranoid, but maybe some of the involved politicians got even payed by the child porn mafia because they hope to get more paying customers once the legal alternatives are outlawed. Unlikely but I would not wonder either.
In the case of pedophilia, someone probably saw that most people that abused children in real life also had a hobby of making these fictional situations. So, that someone convinced a lot of other follow-the-leader-morons that if one makes these fictional situations, it thus leads to the real abuse of children. And that's just dumb. They ignore the fact that the tendancy to abuse children may have led to them creating these fictional pieces, but that doesn't mean everyone that creates these pieces also abuse children. To say that everyone that creates fictional porn of children must also be child abusers themselves is similar to saying that everyone who creates furry porn must therefore abuse animals. Or, to make it generic beyond the furry fandom, that everyone who creates rape fantasies must therefore be rapists and everyone that plays violent video games must therefore be ultra-violent...
Well, lemme expand it a bit. Lusting after small children is obscene, in my book, which includes these Jon-Benet Rameyesque 'beauty pageants' et cetera. I also think that if you wanna draw something, go ahead and draw it. That's essentially harmless. I also don't like seeing that sort of thing on FA (I understand that there's a website called "Cub Central" that specifically caters to this genre; best to leave such material over there), which is a matter of my personal tastes (for example, I don't care for male nudes, M/M pics or herms, either). I don't like governmental censorship; I think everyone should be their own censor.
That help any?
Kind of logically dissonant, but I still think I get the point.
And it goes back to a thing I've been saying for many a long year... if you don't protect the things you DON'T care for, eventually someone's going to come after the things you DO care for. The law is not a scalpel that excises that which the Fun Police find personally offensive... it is a HAMMER that crushes everything that it comes into contact with.
So thank the AllSPark for America and its First Ammendment. Screw this "time, place and manner" BS.
Hit the nail on the head, there. . Well put.
Oy... maybe the Senator Stampingstons in British Parliament need to step back and trust their people to be able to THINK FOR THEMSELVES.
I havent' really given it thought to how i came accross my fetish as a kid... i know i really liked dragonheart hehe X3
Not underage but she kinda looks it and I'm not taking that risk. :|
just so you know I do find pedophilia extremely wrong and think that anyone who is one and hasn't been caught should go get them selves a pack of those chemical castration pills so that they may not hurt children even if tempted.
Did you even read what I wrote in this journal?
I'm really really hoping you didn't, because otherwise you're really pissing me off.
You, like most people, really fail to realize the depth of your comments.
We don't choose our fetishes. We do choose if we act and how we act upon them.
Why are politicians so damned STUPID?
paedophilia, Hebephilia, & ephebophilia however are sexual fetishes (yeah, there's non-sexual fetishes) that largely can't be expressed in the real world without horrible consequences. I think the main inkling behind banning drawn CP is that it reinforces the fetish and can lead to a kid getting raped, killed and thrown into the landfill.
I also find it annoying that anything under 18 makes you a pedophile, it's like calling a dyke gay. (Nerd Alert LOL)
It's also gotten the spotlight because of the media methinks.
Though I think as a society we're a couple of lightyears away from having fetishes generally viewed as something normal.
Although taking away freedoms everyone wants gone like smoking, muscle cars, sex offenders (there's literally shanty towns of sex offenders now LOL) leads to more and more freedoms being taken away. The thought that it couldn't possibly happen is the one thing that lets it happen.
LOL hat fetish. Girls are sexier with hats, what?
There's something quite wrong with the modern legislation trends. Welcome to 1984, a bit late, but we made it. :/
This sort of thing's gone on for a while. I think we'll eventually get to where we want to be. Maybe.
Tee hee.
It's the exact same issue as trying to stop violence in videogames...
The world has gone fucking crazy, and politicians passing crazy laws make retards look smarter than them.
To any British artists out there who draw "cub" or "loli" porn (or whatever): Make their job hard. Make them think "Just what the hell am I doing, and who the hell came up with this law?"
Call your cub characters midgets, give them moustaches, give them grey hair and wrinkles, make them aliens, make them chibis, make them parents, make them ancient ageless Egyptian fairies (say that 3 times fast), or alternatively draw them with fully and well developed adult bodies but claim them to be 9, but explain their looks with magic or something. Draw anything as long as it's confusing and impossible to classify.
Do all that, post everything online, then report yourself to the relevant authorities, and then let the internet know what they did to you.
Okay.
I know it was that way for me with furry art in general.
Really I only reason I replied to you, Anubis3k, is because I wanted to say I love your Spider Jurusalem glasses!
Don't throw stone in glass house thing. :/
One way or another, someone is going to get hurt over something like this, I don't have a feeling for it, I can already see it.
"If you've got a sick little desire in your mind, it's best to just feed it small bits of fantasy to keep it tamed, rather then let it run out of control until it hurts people."
There is nothing wrong with having fantasies about extremely perverse things, as long as you don't try to do it to others in reality. That, is when it becomes a problem.
In Japan, though, they have had hentai games coming out since the mid-late 80's, which, surprisingly enough, is when their sex crime rate started to decline.
Huh. Odd, isn't it? It's why I want to stab Equality Now is the kidneys.
A while back, Japan made it illegal for pornography to show pubic hair. After a few years, the concept of sex with underage girls became quite popular because of this. And the law was changed to allow for it.
By attempting to use the law to enforce moral purity, they only ended up creating a country where what we would consider pedophilia to be legal, and almost common. (hell, I hear that some public restrooms in Japan have vending machines stocked with girl's underwear...)
Kinda pathetic, huh?
The surge in hentai games created an outlet within the law for people to express all the aspects of their humanity without having to do things that the rest of us consider horrendous.
Yeah, laws like this can more often than not only end up hurting the cause they would stand for. Right and wrong are often determined solely by what side of the fence you're on...
Even if the REAL difference between right and wrong is sometimes obscured by that fence.
The outlet created by the hentai games was a great thing. All of the people I know that have extreme fetishes such as rape, guro, loli, and the such, fully admit that its a horrible horrible act. They use the hentai as an outlet for their fetishes. Some of them say that it should be illegal to portray period, even though it arouses them. The simple fact that people enjoy something in fiction doesn't mean that they're sick in the mind and enjoy it in reality. Thats why the sex rate went down. That and the fact that you can go to jail for 6 months for telling someone to take their clothes off and walk across the street.
Sorry, had to clarify it.
So there are panty vending machines, but not used panty vending machines(at least not anymore).
My point remains.
You make a lot of sence. People need to think before even thinking about trying to ostrisize others.
.....
That and Yay for boobies!!!!!!!
=^___^=
Your theories on the development of fetishes sound intriguing, as well... Hmm... I couldn't stand my family at all growing up, and now I have somewhat of an incest fetish. Is that how that happened? ;P
I'm a big brother of six flesh-rending little beasts. Because of this I have certain instincts that have consternated me to no end; you know how many mothers can pick out the sound of a crying child in a crowd? I do that too, and I HATE it. ( I don't like children--can't stand them actually, but I have an inexplicable urge to protect, provide for, and teach them when I see them. And the concept of pedophilia is a bit of a hot button for me, whether I like it or not)
Also, I have a complicated concept of sex.
Sex is important to me. I consider it a discipline of sorts to be cherished and understood. And many of the fears, misjudgments, and misunderstandings that people have about sex confuse and depress me a great deal.
To that end, I DO believe that a person can choose their fetishes. This is because I believe that a person can indeed have influence over how their mind copes with the horrors of everyday life. (what was that line form Twisted metal?)
I also feel the way I do because of personal experience.
I may be a stubborn little son of a bitch, but I sincerely doubt that I am a bastion of human willpower. I too believe that a person will spontaneously develop fetishes whether they want to or not, but I also feel that if a person tries to learn WHY their mind concocted these feelings then they can indeed choose to not develop the fetish.
The mind is a complicated thing, but if you can come to understand it, and to accept it, you'd be surprised what you can do with it.
Personal growth is a natural necessity, one that most people seem intent upon ignoring, medicating, or rationalizing away.
I may be biased in the way I feel, but I do believe that if a person has a fetish for pedophilia, then there are some issues that they have to understand with themselves. This doesn't make them crazy, or evil. But it DOES mean that they have issues they need to cope with.
Art or not, I feel that child pornography is wrong, both as a big brother and as a man with strong feelings about the value of sex.
I do agree that a person should explore their feelings and fetishes, and that expressing them IS a very good way to understand them. It is also what PREVENTS people from going crazy and victimizing people in real life.
But... I honestly take great offense from child pornography.
People will be people, whether they want to or not. That means possessing complicated emotions and feelings, whether we want to or not.
Unlike most folks, I don't feel that the existence of these feelings is a flaw. I feel that refusing to understand and control them is.
If a person develops these kind of feelings, then it is for a reason. And if they can truly understand that reason, then they can choose NOT to feel that way if they are driven to feel something they know is wrong.
I wouldn't be too worried about these new laws. Not being able to post cub porn on sites like this will NOT lead confused souls to enact their perceived desires in real life. And even if admins do remove the art and ban the artist, the wonderful thing about the internet is the fact that it is too big to be totally controlled. I am more worried about those who look to art and sites like this to convince themselves that these desires are too common to be wrong.
I don't believe that these laws will affect these people either.
These laws are for nothing but to convince a few people that they can affect the world around them in ways that they cannot. And that false comfort will be short lived.
I find the thought that those who entertain the wrong fetishes for the wrong reasons will be denied to indeed be a little comforting, but I know that comfort is unfounded.
Instead I hope that those who don't know what they really feel will take this lack of rationalization as a cue to learn more about themselves.
It is a silly, childish and selfish desire, but it is mine.
And I can accept the consequences of these feelings.
That is my nature. Of all the feelings I have experienced, this is the one that I chosen to allow to grow.
Would you feel more comforted, more vindicated, if I simply decried you as unholy and evil? Or if I clung to the moral high ground and actively declared myself "good"?
Then you could just write me off as another bigot, putting up a facade of civility to mask a sense of superiority.
Sorry, I am NOT that kind of person.
Do you honestly believe that I am?
Coming from you, that hurts.
I could say anything here, anything at all, and the outcome would be the same.
You won't listen, will assume that my differences and opinions are based on ignorance and a petty dependence on orthopoxy. And that I am attempting to force a false sense of civility.
I am not the shallow, clingy creature that you take me for.
Yes, I have already decided what I feel and believe. But I AM listening, even when I disagree.
Yes, I will disagree with some of what you say and feel. But I still consider every word you write. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I oppose you. Or is no one who disagrees with you capable of doing so for any reason other than selfish arrogance? Have you become like those who've judged you?
I've no intention of trying to change what you feel, or prove you wrong. I only wish to hear your opinions, and maybe have an intelligent human being listen to my own.
I've no intention of touting the strength of my own character.
I wouldn't have a very strong character if I did, now would I?.
I am not as non-committal as you may believe.
Nor am I dependent on my own preconceptions.
This world contains more than just those who agree with you and those who judge you.
I like you.
I find your opinions and philosophies intriguing, and your art to be deep and expressive. And I will continue to do so.
Frankly, I will also continue to disagree with you and will butt heads with you whenever possible.
That is how I treat the people I respect. I thrive on contention.
If you can't handle that, then maybe I'm not the one who is having difficulty listening.
Disagree with me. Argue with me.
Yell, scream, let the fur fly (no pun intended).
But get it through your head that you are dealing with an ADULT, just like you.
Yes, I am listening. And I take everything you say quite seriously.
If you really think that I'm not, and that you already know everything that I REALLY mean and feel, then I salute your incredible ability to read the mind of a person you've never even met.
If you truly wish for me to keep my opinions to myself, then tell me, and I will.
I will respect your privacy and your space as much as I have always respected your opinions.
I will also continue to view your art and your opinions for as long as you have something insightful to contribute to the world.
Otherwise, get thicker skin, and realize that you are conversing with a man possessing pride, not arrogance.
Look. It doesn't take a genius to see a pattern. Himax, have you ever wondered why people often don't like you? Do you think it's because your opinions are controversial or that you have a strong sense of will?
Let me destroy that delusion.
The reason is because you cannot stop talking... about yourself.
This isn't some innocent tribute to your verbosity, or a comical attribute that makes you beloved, it's a genuine weakness. Anytime you talk about anything at all, the only thing I hear from you is how you can relate said thing to some sort of moral value you have and how you just believe that one thing for its own sake, without ever really justifying any of it.
And the truth of the matter is, for the love of god, if you had half the confidence you advertise, you wouldn't be trying to plug up the conversation with miles and miles of text... about you.
I'm not exaggerating here, just go through your previous posts and count how many times you had to use the word "I." It's an exercise worthy of anybody, especially someone who's preaching so hard about people learning about themselves.
It's not like I'm trying to put you down, but for god's sake, man! Look past the front of your eyes once in a while.
But, fine. Alright. You want me to do this the traditional way? I'll post against your original post, minus the extreme weariness. Give me a minute.
Thank you. Now do that more often.
My opinion on the subject is that some things in your brain and mind can be controlled and cured with a strong will, deep insight and knowing how to do. And some things would require brain surgery to get fixed, if you actually want to get rid of them in the first place. The technology is already advanced enough for some brain modifiactions and it is only a question of time and continuing till it is advanced enough for fixing a good share of the rest. The abuse potential is obvious as well.
The question is how deeply rooted the pedophilia is in the psyche and brain structure, and this differs. For some it may be a secondary fetish, rather a kink, they can get rid off with strong will, for some it can be a deeply rooted fetish, about as deeply rootet as their sexual orientation, which would require surgery to get rid of. Though I agree that it still also takes a strong will to voluntary get a sexual modification like that.
Also, as long as they keep it to themselves or only share it with mature like-minded people and do not harm others or try to recruit people, how harmful are they actually to society? If you measure wrongness by harmfullness, how wrong would it then still be?
The question is what would be the ideal solution. It could be treating fictional CP of any kind like a prescription medicament (the comparison is not perfect but good enough to work for that matter). You get only access to when there is documented need. This way you keep people from getting into it who otherwise would not get into it.
Related to the internet a working solution would be some anonymus psychological tests which maybe contain some pictures, but nothing so sexually strong it could be intoxicating (aka fetish fuel), and if the results indicate you are a pedophile you get access to some passwords that give you access to deactivating a special filter on the art sites that allow fictional CP. Everybody else does not even see the pictures.
Getting that thing in form of a mandatory upgrade for each and every site dealing with that stuff might be much work to reach worldwide but you could cover a great range of the sites, 80% maybe.
The tests would also multiple choice answers in which you fill in what attracts you at a particular picture and what not, including the blank space for writing your own answer and comments.
When you see flaws at the concept or things to do better please tell me.
You have some valid opinions too. I agree with some, and I agree with Nori on others.
Either way, thank you.
I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts in the future.
I agree with Nori in that a person will feel what they do regardless of whether or not they have fetish fuel. I also agree that if a person's fetishes do no harm to others, then there is no reason to judge them for them--Even fetishes like these.
There IS a difference between a person with a fetish and a pedophile--Even f I personally am offended by both.
I don't think that something like brain surgery is a viable treatment for fetishes (or that fetishes necessarily need treatment), regardless of the level of severity or technology, but that is more of an older argument I have over the nature of humanity (one which has it's own degree of overplayed points ;P).
The internet is too big for this law to have any real impact, other than allowing individuals to rat on each other for infantile reasons.
This law serves little purpose other than possibly to cause the shutdown of a few of the REAL threatening sites which foster pedophilia. And even then, they can just be restarted elsewhere. Those who are either just honestly confused or have a harmless fetish may be caught in the crossfire though, and that's what Nori is worried about.
Thanks for your input.
Before I finished the paragraph I knew this would end in "... So I have a right to feel uber protective against this!" It's by far the most common thing I hear in response to this.
It's bullshit, of course. It doesn't matter if you have more attachment than an umbilical cord to these kids, that doesn't mean you get a free pass from thinking without hotblooded mouth-breathing. You think you're the only one with a family? Not even close.
Sex is important to me. I consider it a discipline of sorts to be cherished and understood
This isn't about you. Although it could be about you, because you do have fetishes, and I'm fairly certain I've never heard you discuss the reasons for having them. Regardless, still not about you. This is about other people.
To that end, I DO believe that a person can choose their fetishes. This is because I believe that a person can indeed have influence over how their mind copes with the horrors of everyday life.
Oh, well if you believe it, then-
That doesn't make a difference. Facts, man, where are they? You aren't even completing your thought.
Art or not, I feel that child pornography is wrong, both as a big brother and as a man with strong feelings about the value of sex.
Once again, your family doesn't matter here. Why is it wrong? Complete your thought.
If a person develops these kind of feelings, then it is for a reason. And if they can truly understand that reason, then they can choose NOT to feel that way if they are driven to feel something they know is wrong.
Okay, hold the god-damned phone, here. Does this sound familiar? Yes, yes it does. It sounds familiar, because not a few years ago, that's what I heard from people while they were talking about being gay. Oh, yes, we all remember that, don't we? The wonderful miracle of faith that will make me not a faggot as long as I'm ashamed enough of my sinful love for men? Sell me no snake oil, I've heard this tune before. Shaming yourself into denial is NOT THERAPY, it's the beginning of another complex. How is this in any way a learning experience?
I wouldn't be too worried about these new laws.
Of course you wouldn't, they don't affect you. Not about you.
I am more worried about those who look to art and sites like this to convince themselves that these desires are too common to be wrong.
Dude, first of all, you're not worried. Secondly, you can't even manage, in a full page of text, to tell us why it's wrong, so I immediately call bullshit on that. And lastly, this still falls into your strategy of "shame and deny," which is the kind of reckless assholery that makes people go crazy and kill themselves.
So in the end, all I'm getting from this is that you yourself don't have a fetish for kids, and that everyone who does should just be as ashamed of it as possible. I find this perspective worthless.
But this is the kind of brutal honesty only friends can give.
>Recently, the UK has passed a law banning not just child porn, but drawn porn of children, even if they are obviously not human.
...And watch them not arrest Maurice Sendak for In The Night Kitchen.
>Now, I'm offended by the idea that anyplace has a law where I would be able to draw something illegal.
HELL YEAH.
>It is wrong, because it traumatizes the individual in question- they aren't ready for that type of thing to happen to them yet, and there's no way for them to even enjoy it.
Would it surprise you to know that science does not completely support any of those positions?
A study published in the APA found that abuse doesn't always cause the type of trauma we tend to believe it does; what constitutes sexual abuse is very vaguely defined; and that whether a child is traumatized by a sexual act depends heavily on if the act was consensual or not. (Check out 'Rind et al' on Wikipedia) Of course, politicians, and even other scientists, condemned the living fuck out of this study because they didn't like what it said.
Also, children are not any different from adults biologically. Their genitals respond to touch the same as anyone else's. Anyone who counsels children who've been raped will tell you that.
This is not to say i support people fucking kids. A fellow named Dendrophilian on YouTube put it brilliantly: it is wrong to have sex with children in today's society because of society's views on it. An analogy: If you eat pork, it's not going to physically harm you (Assuming it's cooked and you don't eat too much). But if you force a Muslim or a Jew to eat pork, that could easily be extremely traumatic to them because of what they have been taught to believe. The fact that it causes no physical harm is irrelevant. Similarly, if a child is taught that it's the most terrible thing in the world if someone touches their body in a certain way, they are going to feel terrible if it happens, regardless of the physical sensations.
But the everpresent fear of pedophilia accusations has led to a culture where people are scared to death of ever touching a child at all. And humans *need* touch. It is literally a need. Many mammal species need physical affection when they are children or they can't develop normally. A hug or a pat on the butt, by itself, is never, ever going to harm a child. (And neither is seeing someone naked: children in nudist colonies tend to have healthier self-images and self-esteem.)
And remember, the same accusations of life-destroying trauma were once applied to masturbation and homosexuality. From where? The church. Things we believe unquestionably about sex have a habit of changing as the decades go by, is all I'm saying.
>Well, first we have to understand why fetishes exist. I've personally been researching this for years, now, and near as I can tell, they are almost always closely linked to the developmental processes of the people who harbor them. Most often, they're developed in childhood, for various reasons.
Total agreement there. Hell, I can trace a large portion of my vore fetish to seeing Tales From The Darkside: The Movie as a kid.
>Creating imaginary people to act out these fantasies not only lets you release these feelings you might not want to share with other people in your life, it helps you easily separate fantasy and reality, because they exist on two different planes.
HOLY FUCK, I AM AGREEING SO MUCH!
So in the end, why is pedophilia any different? We don't choose what fetishes we develop, mostly because we're often not even old enough to realize what's going on.
>You can tell somebody that they need to see a psychiatrist, but ultimately this frontier science still has a bad track record of doing more harm than good through harmful drugs, lies and indifference.
I won't write off psychiatry entirely, but _rarely_ in my long history of encounters with it has it ever helped me. Every once in a while you get a good shrink who cares, but then you get ten more who are crazy themselves or who prescribe pills after knowing you for fifteen minutes (literally happened). And on the whole, having a good talk with a close friend is as therapeutic as anything I've ever encountered in psychiatry...
>Well, that only really puts more innocent people in danger in the real world, now doesn't it?
I AM AGREEING SOME MORE!!!
I also wanted to thank you for making the distinction between 'pedophile' and 'criminal' in one of the comments above. It's imperative that people learn to understand this eventually. There is no rage that burns in me hotter than the one directed at people who hurt children. Put me in a room with a child abuser and let me do anything I want legally, and I would have absolutely no problem getting my hands red. But I'm equally passionate about the fact that THOUGHTS and ACTIONS are two separate things.
Ah, but that's why I didn't say 'children.' I said 'underdeveloped people,' which cleverly corrals only those who are mentally unprepared for such a thing. *cheeky grin*
Things we believe unquestionably about sex have a habit of changing as the decades go by, is all I'm saying.
It's so true. Who knows what the norm will be a century from now? Look how far we've come already.
But I'm equally passionate about the fact that THOUGHTS and ACTIONS are two separate things.
Two different things that affect each other greatly, and which we should spend a lot more time studying.
...Touché.
>It's so true. Who knows what the norm will be a century from now? Look how far we've come already.
We're still clinging to the false premise that sex is anything but natural, necessary, pleasurable and innocent. Once we get rid of that entirely, maybe we can turn our attention to actual problems and do some evolving.
>Two different things that affect each other greatly, and which we should spend a lot more time studying.
I just wish the social climate wasn't so goddamned witch-hunty about pedophilia. Maybe we could get some real, responsible research going on and find out, for instance, why some pedophiles cross the line into child molesting.
Speaking of research, you know how cop shows love to remind us that sex criminals can't be cured an they always return to commiting crimes when they're released? Turns out that's utter bullshit. The government's own stats show that sex criminals have a *lower* recidivism rate than most other groups of criminals! (Probably because they don't wanna go through the hell of prison again just to get their rocks off.)
GOOD MAN. After I stopped being afraid of sex I jumped onto the idea that being sexual does not eliminate your innocence. Innocence of what!? XD
Oh Romeo...
Seriously, they're just nuts. If anyone can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality its someone who'd advocate or worse pass a law like that to protect something that doesn't exist and where nothing's been victimized (other than the artist or writer involved). Someone had a journal earlier and someone had a link to a man in Canada whose life was destroyed after being convicted of child pornography because he wrote a few stories involving under the legal age humans having sex. Didn't do anything to protect any real kids from abuse, just left more people terrified and likely more children traumatized because the adults around them don't want to be near them for fear of ending up in jail for standing too close to them.
What they do here is somewhere between a scapegoat alibi and starting paranoia to get votes.
The fetish of pedophilia? Not wrong. Everyone has a fetish, and is entitled to it, no one can say for a fact that having 'feelings' is wrong. It may not be the norm, it may be morally questionable, but, to have those feelings isn't wrong. To act upon them, forcefully, is where the wrongness comes in. Forcing a child into sex to satisfy your own desires for sex is wrong. That said, I'm not under the belief that someone that looks at Loli art or cub porn is going to molest the nearest child they come into contact with. Rather, its a double edged sword: it can give a place to vent those feelings to prevent action, or in some individuals drive them -to- action.
Is there a way to prevent or correct this? No, there isn't. As stated by Kathras, banning the material helps as much as it hurts. Now you've taken away one individual's motivation, but also took away another individual's escape. There really isn't a way to play this out without something bad coming of it one way or another.
The overlying issue however is the fact that, worldwide, human rights are being pushed aside for 'societies' standards'. People with too much time on their hands will pick up a picket sign for any damn cause these days. These things go in cycles! For a long time, we're talking hundreds of years, it was a social norm for an older man to marry a girl as young as 14. Now, we view that as wrong and immoral. Of course there are circumstances with those marriages, some being forced and some strictly with the parent's interest in aquiring land and trade rather than their child's feelings.. but thats not the issue here. The issue is that at one point in time, having sex with girls of that age was the norm. Now it isn't, even though children as a whole are growing up faster both physically and mentally than ever before.
Another example: Smoking. Smoking at one time was considered -healthy- and popular! Almost all of the population smoked. Of course science has shown us the hazards, and given us means to inform ourselves about it.. but society has removed choice. It started as being made into "smoking section" and "Non-smoking section", to only smoking out-of-doors, to only smoking out-of-doors in a designated area.. to no smoking in any public establishments' properties. Non smokers get to enjoy all the benefits of having everything their way, but smokers have no say and are ostrasized.
I guess what I'm trying to say in all this rambling: drawn porn can have its benefits and its downfalls, but it all depends on the individual viewing them. However, people should still have a CHOICE on weather or not to view them. Not have the decision made for them by removing offensive material altogether in hopes to appease all those picket-sign holders. Society needs to stop stamping out individual rights to appease the masses of those that will find -anything- to bitch about.
don't get me wrong i'll get a little pissed off if i find a doujin about an anime i'm a fan of if and one of the chracters is made out to be a slut or is raped and broken mentally and physically.
again thx. i feel alot more... normal now
There are two chambers to the heart of the problem here.
To start, there is no proof that, as someone put it earlier. 'feeding the beast fantasy' really keeps it tame. There is just as much mud slinging about skewed studies and incomplete data on both sides that it comes down to it: no one is sure if this so called "stress relief" is helpful or harmful to the individual. On the on side, you imagine that 'getting it out of the system' alleviates the need to do it "in real life" but on the other side of the coin, you could say that practicing it, in a game, or in drawn form, works up the nerve to do it, in the future, upon a real subject. Would I have ever considered putting a penis in my mouth, upon the onset of my discovery of my enjoyment of hermaphrodites? No. Would I, now, after years of fantasy and 'practice'? *raises coke can* Have done.
The other side is: for whom does this art exist for? Let's give you the first chamber. Let's say, for argument's sake that it is very therapeutic to draw kiddie porn. Alright. Now what? You've relieved one person's stress, and, in turn, agitated hundreds, if not thousands, if possibly even millions of fellow 'suffers' with the drawing. One for a million? I don't like the odds. "But Shoof," you cry, "I didn't intend for it to get into THEIR hands. It was suppose to be something personal." By that logic, just "having" real life child pornography on your computer shouldn't be a crime, either. You didn't create it, you can't hope but not be responsible for it, nor the children harmed in the making of it. I suppose that is putting the cart before the horse, a bit, but slippery slopes roll only one way - down. They do go both directions though: left and right.
My suggestion? Tear it up. Do your doodle, and then destroy it. Yes, that is stepping a bit on the toes of artistic integrity, but if it was just for relief of sudden urges, it shouldn't be all that complicated, should it? If you want to seek respect as an artist, and prove your worth, it should be easy to draw any number of other topics to make your mark. If child pornography is your 'key to success' the I beg you to consider who's lock you're turning. People who are addicted. If it were as simple as just thinking up, drawing down, or writing away all of your wants and wills, then there would be no crime on the planet. Just thousands upon thousands of "thinking rooms." But some people take it to obsession, and they rarely take it of themselves. They take from others, draw from others, dream of others. I don't think any of the people featured on To Catch a Predator woke up that day and said "ya know, I'm gonna find an under-age teen chat, just so I can drive somewhere today." I can't promise you that any of them started with cub porn, as they're mostly 30+ years old, but I can't tell you that they all, for sure, didn't. I can almost bet that a few of them, yes, started out with art. Drawn porn, progressed to the real thing, progressed to role play, progressed to real chat... and then got featured on Dateline.
... of course, feel free to tell me "Shuddup, Shoof." ... it was your birthday recently and all.
I appreciate the challenge to the thought, but in this particular case, what I've always observed is that it's not quite this correlative. Relieving, indulging in the fetish does usually end up in the person being more comfortable with the concepts, yes, which is something that usually helps self-image quite a bit, but making them more brazen toward action? The cause of that is almost always another problem: obsession.
Other, more 'big picture' situations more often than not are the engineer of catastrophe, causing the person to crack in a way that we then later correlate to the wrong thing. Just like you have to eat a balanced diet, a fetish is no replacement for a mentally healthy lifestyle. If someone dies because they ate nothing but toast, was the toast the problem? Never. They became addicted to something because they had other issues that would have driven them to something unfortunate regardless of the form- just like you can be addicted to anything under the sun, and people often do.
As for the idea that indulgence is therapeutic... I really just have to side on my own observations of positive development. Every time I've helped someone deduce their own fetish as well as the reasons behind it, the benefits are always two-fold and extremely significant to them, both in the self-image and in positive assessment of their own behaviors. I have yet to observe a case where this hasn't occurred to the betterment of that person on the whole, and the subsequent exploration is usually very enlightening to them.
So in the end, not a bad point, but I just don't think what I've observed thus far supports it.
As for obsession, I, no, don't believe that it takes that level in order for someone to become emboldened and strike out. I think obsession classifies a neurotic diligence towards the subject. (I hate to keep referring back to the media, but) I'm sure I remember the men turned over by Chris Hanson and his little crew were, for the most part, stumbling and stuttering about their ideas. I didn't see any of them pull up in a van that says "Underage Pussy Wagon" ... I do imagine they had quiet the stash of kiddie porn, though. So I suppose it's 'to what level' you're obsessing over, and then, still, you graduate as you go along.
Your toast example, though - if you could cut off the man's supply of toast, or continue to give it to him, which is more likely to lead to change? If we're going to provide correlation between the two events, I would first have to assume that eating nothing but toast is morally reprehensible, and change would be welcome, if not encouraged or mandatory. Yes, big pictures is a whole lot of things... but changing that is nigh impossible half the time. I'm not trying to sound defeatist or pessimistic there, but if we had the means to change a person's mood like that, I'm not so sure that the cure wouldn't be worse than the disease. All law enforcement can hope to do at this time is change one or two colors/
You see as them trying to solve a problem they have no business meddling in. To them, however, they're attempting to do all that they can to solve a problem they have no idea how to go about doing. The difference is that I doubt they want to do it any more than it can help the situation, but I'm sure there is some sort of movement or threat or worry that is forcing their hand. If a burglar is approaching your room late at night, and you have the option to A) hide under the covers and pray he doesn't do you anything B) defend yourself with a rubber chicken or C) poise a cannon towards the door and strike a match... well... it's over kill, but you have your options.
You tell me. These people who have had their fetishes revealed... have they made amends to quell their behavior?
As for the rest of it, I can't pretend to be as versed with the law as I am with the mind. Ultimately the administrative decision might just be beyond my reach to comprehend the benefit of. But then, that wasn't really the overreaching point of the journal, either- it was to provide a counterpoint to all the thunderous emotive 'reasoning' behind all this meaningless character defamation, in an effort to finally represent the other side of this topic in a meaningful way.
As far as the rehabilitation, you have to admit - it's a lot of work, for little guarantee of progress. Something that can't be state funded. Another thing you have to realize is that a lot of these people... a lot of the ones willing to go that "extra mile" aren't the one who are willing to admit they have a problem. Either by blind ignorance of their delinquency, rational that what they are doing isn't wrong, or by the simple fact that they refuse to believe that they are actually, honestly doing it, a lot of these men and women aren't going to "turn themselves over" for help until it is far, far too late. Laws like these attempt to catch people who can be helped before they hurt. Admittedly, they'll likely be going to prison, instead of some psychiatric ward, but the first step is admitting the problem, isn't it?
As for the people that need the help... a lot of work for little guarantee of progress? Yes. Oh, yes, definitely. BUT. Is it worth it? That's something you can only ask, ironically... a parent.
And - that's what I love about America. We've got a judicial system (law enforcement) but we've also got the Legislative and Executive branches. So, in theory, we have 3 times the chance that SOMEONE will care. =3
Por vu.
Number two, you backed up my ability to not feel ashamed of said fetishes, esspecialy after someone I never had directed any hate towards said "unlike you, I'm not a freak destined to disgust the human world with his sick fantasies" so I thank you for the help on that one as well.
Thirdly, I agree completely with you that drawing helps the "Illegal" fetishes, it definatly does, the legal one can be a little diffrent because they are legal and you can find people to actualy complete them with some people may tend to be unhappy with just drawing them when it IS possible to do them.
Fourthly, Do you mind if I re-post this journal? I think a few of my page visitors could use an ego slapping of this caliber.
Interesting... I'd very much like to know more, if you'd share it with me, say, in a note.
Oh, and yes, feel free to post this wherever you see fit.
Sure I don't mind sharing, you shared sort of lol
Couple that to a government who really couldn't give a shit as to what the public think and instead cheat the system by reclaiming money for things they shouldn't, all the while thinking that it's not unlawful to do this. And considering that a growing number of people are in debt and are being forced out of their homes by repossession companies, it's no wonder they have lost faith in the main parties and are heading to far right groups like the British National Party who I hope all get what's coming to them.
In my eyes, this old saying couldn't be more true. "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Another way to look at it is in the film, "Hot Fuzz" whereby people do various things in the starring village for "the greater good" when it is just corrupting them further and further.
There was even a law passed in the UK where a police officer could seize a photographer's camera if they considered them to be acting suspiciously. Many innocent artists as a result have suffered by being bullied into deleting pictures, having cameras taken from them and in the worst cases, being given a criminal record. All for the sake of keeping the terrorists at bay.
The terrorists are winning. The government is taking our freedom.
To me, this issue about drawings of CP is really about something more general: the freedom to express yourself and your ideas. That, and the line between fantasy and reality, or if you will, thought and action.
Somewhere back in our brains we’re animals, and we all have urges, to a greater or lesser extent, that we’re better off not acting on. I believe we need to acknowledge them if we don’t want to risk being blind-sided by them. I also think that we all have a concept of the real world versus our own imagination. And that if we don’t have tools to mark up for ourselves which is which, we might fail to keep them apart. Drawings are one such tool.
There’s one big running point for me. If we leave it up to a few people to decide what kind of decisions everyone else is capable of making, we are on one of those slippery slopes already mentioned.
If something’s mentally developed, my spontaneous thought is you should be able to mentally undevelop it. What’ve you got on that?
btw I hope you had a nice birthday!
Cub porn is not my thing (He hastened to say for legal reasons ) but it so clearly has no bearing on real life.
I mean, if you are unable to tell fantasy from reality on that level, you should probably not be out and about anyway.
Sorry to say this but I actually like the law even though I don't live out there. Sure what you are drawing is just that. a drawing but since it is an expression of what you want to do... you still have urges to do said act. Fetishes for stuff like large breasts and butts are actually pretty normal in the subconscious mind since we actually do look for that in mating.
We like big breasts because they can produce milk well. We like shapely butts because a shapely butt is actually a kind of indicator that the mate you are going for is healthy. We like wide hips for they are better for carrying a child. Having an interest in children which have none of the things we are looking for is actually unnatural for us human beings.
Most fetishes that don't really deal with or can't be related back to the appealing factors of a mate are devious fetishes that are just abnormal. Society don't really have a problem if you have a balloon fetish or a scat fetish since it doesn't have any potential in harming the public what so ever ( Unless you have a fetish where you like to kill people with balloons or scat >.>) But pedophilia fetish is a problem since you have an interest in harming children sexually.
Sure this law is sort of an attack on artistic freedom but at the same time it is taking care of a thought that we shouldn't be thinking of in the first place.
( BTW can we still be friends after this :D? You seem to be really hating the people who try to give you opposed arguments)
You raise a number of good points, at least partially. The problem is, you're basing all of this off of something that doesn't work in an enlightened society. If laws are made according to people being attracted to mates, then being gay would be illegal, since that doesn't make sense inside this structure. Which I think we both can agree is a major step backward. Secondly, we aren't animals. We are people, and thus, our relationships are far more complicated than animals' could ever be, thus destroying the validity of that assertion.
People who have the fetish of pedophilia are no more disposed to harming children than people with rape fantasies (something that IS part of our nature, unfortunately) are disposed to raping people. But the real thing about what you said that disturbs me the most is this:
Sure this law is sort of an attack on artistic freedom but at the same time it is taking care of a thought that we shouldn't be thinking of in the first place.
When people make laws concerning what you should think, that's called Thought Crime. You don't want this. You might think you do, but you really really don't, because it's the onset of mental slavery. You should read this book sometime.
Also it is strange to have a ground that kind of goes against science and religion. Usually an argument like this has either side and is one of the things that is interesting about this debate journal o.o
Ok... my mind stopped working for the night... will try to pick up tomarrow.
Until then i'll leave you with this.
http://www.newswithviews.com/psycho.....sychology3.htm some weird conspiracy stuff that I thought was an interesting read when looking up possible counter argument stuff :P
When I recharge my batteries we can THROW DOWN SOME MORE!! XD.
Yea we have emotions that can make us do some crazy things but right and wrong are still something we as humans have
See, you keep saying that, but you don't back it up with anything. Where is your assertion, where is your science?
and that is something that changes from land to land but you are living in a society that thinks this is wrong
Me? Personally? My society doesn't know its head from its ass, much less what's right and wrong.
and you agree that doing some kid is wrong.
Yes. I agree because it would cause damage to the individual, and I'm against individuals coming to harm if it can be avoided.
IF you have thoughts of a bad action that you really wanna do that you know is wrong.. wouldn't you wanna try to fix it somehow?
Oh, you mean, like, with therapy, and keeping it from manifesting through indulgence of fantasy? Hint, hint.
Until then i'll leave you with this.
This person, similarly, doesn't ever expound on their point and explain what the reason for any of this is, which is terrible if he's boasting any kind of knowledge of the mind, much less twenty-plus years. He draws ludicrous parallels with children's shows, ignores the history of state laws, and generally doesn't sound like he's too fond of 'facts' or 'research.' Evidently he spends all his time twiddling his thumbs and making knee-jerk judgements.
That link I sent ya wasn't suppose to aid my argument.. I just thought it was an interesting conspiracy idea :P.
Oh, you mean, like, with therapy, and keeping it from manifesting through indulgence of fantasy? Hint, hint.
That isn't addressing the problem, that is just feeding into it ( drawing it I mean). It would be better to have a psychologist help you replace that urge with a new one. There is a low possibility of you actually going out and nabbing a kid sure but it's best to cut out that possibility all together. Also I recommend a psychologist over a psychiatrist, psychologists I find better since they try to eradicate the problem instead of just covering it up with drugs.
Anyway I doubt this new law would get in your way anyway. You only probably keep those drawings in your computer. I don't think you should be that worried about it. Lol it's not like you're that guy down in Australia trying to make stuff like child porn legal :P
...I'm probably off the topic you were talking about. I don't really have a point. I'm sleep-deprived. No need to hit me with one of those massive counterpoints you throw around on these threads. I don't disagree with you more or less, I just think private preferences might be best kept private or anonymous.
Does this imply that if the mind became "corrected", the fetish would no longer go away? No so much that it was "wrong" but because it is obsolete?
Which is better, protecting your freedom or "correcting" your mind?
I recognize that fetishes aren't really wrong, just either illogical or gross. And mine are definitely that. But I also like having them. In a grander scheme of things, is getting over them better for the mind in the long run, or is it a moot point after one becomes an adult?
For the record, I can't feel too bad about my cub fetish because I've been looking at it since I was a cub XD, in one form or another.
But what of the consequences concerning cause and effect? If a pedophile looks at such artwork, doesn't it encourage him? Hopefully, most pedophiles will NEVER act on their lusts but what of the more daring filthbags? the ones who take initiative?
Imagination and Contemplation are direct precedents to Action. Pedophiles don't just wake up one morning and decide to bugger a 12 year old: it is a learned neurosis; be it a tumultuous upbringing, loose scruples or neural malfunction.
I believe that even artistic child pornography is a gateway BUT in a case of two evils, it is the lesser of actual causing harm to a child.
In closing, a very interesting and Well written journal Norithics.
It's a bit like the claim that video games can cause you to commit violent crimes. The theory is that indulging in the fantasy violence spurs the person further to actually commit the act. But has been shown to be a very inappropriate conclusion to reach on causal relationships between thought and action, and it's that same kind of results-oriented 'research' that keeps producing these 'scientific conclusions' that are always ultimately funded by biased groups or not conducted in a way that actually seeks knowledge.
You're very wise, though, given even an emotional bias, to pick the less harmful of the two despite anything else. Ultimately, this subject is riddled with contentious feelings by outraged people, and that unfairly colors the debate far too often.
but even in context: child pornography and video game violence are like whales and dolphins: both are cetaceans, dwell in the ocean, are mammal but their fundamental difference is genus.
does that mean one is more inferior to the other? depends whom you ask. so it boils down to again, a matter of opinion.
and yes: it is a sad shame when folk try and logically debate such a delicate subject without turning into a verbal barrage.
However I disagree that cub art is something wrong. The cub drawing is something different than a photograph of a naked child. The photo is made from real source - alive person. <- - - - This is wrong. What about handmade pictures, drawings, pantings and so on? They are not real and they are based on imagination. In fictional world everything is possible and no harm in done to alive person. Do you see a babyfur? OMG this is so wrong - you say. I disagree, the babyfur is over 60!!! Everything is ok then, what's wrong with you???? :p
I hate cub. I hate lolicon. I hate everything of that nature.
But I will not attempt to stop anyone from drawing it, since it's only fiction.
The question is what would be the ideal solution. It could be treating fictional CP of any kind like a prescription medicament (the comparison is not perfect but good enough to work for that matter). You get only access to when there is documented need. This way you keep people from getting into it who otherwise would not get into it.
Related to the internet a working solution would be some anonymus psychological tests which maybe contain some pictures, but nothing so sexually strong it could be intoxicating (aka fetish fuel), and if the results indicate you are a pedophile you get access to some passwords that give you access to deactivating a special filter on the art sites that allow fictional CP. Everybody else does not even see the pictures.
Getting that thing in form of a mandatory upgrade for each and every site dealing with that stuff might be much work to reach worldwide but you could cover a great range of the sites, 80% maybe.
The tests would also multiple choice answers in which you fill in what attracts you at a particular picture and what not, including the blank space for writing your own answer and comments.
What do yout think about the concept and what would you make better?
It's an incentive linked with a mechanism that could easily be used to help them get better, get over whatever problems they had, improve their behavioral and mental health. I think that would be the clause I would add: that you had to check in somewhere at some point to give your story, maybe compose a journal of your feelings and progress on the subject and hand it in every few months or so. That would be optimum.
needs to be censored by the government) needs
to be shot full of spears.
To the senators and elected officials in the UK that made such laws:
Congratulations! You are now Red China!
After you realize that fucked-up piece of irony, repeal the law,
load a revolver, put it to your head, and pull the trigger just
by saving the world from rampant stupidity by blowing your
brains out!