Is will be missed. On a side note reupload it and put a spanish marching band on it

... the problem with asking questions is admitting that you know the item is questionable, which in and of itself is the answer.

I roll dem bones.

Maybe.
Or maybe you're too cautious.
Or maybe you're not!

Lawyers will always say 'no.'

You do know that sexual Cub Art isn't permitted on FA anymore, right? This happened a while ago. Made a big shitstorm from all the Cub Furs who no longer had a place to see kiddy porn. The service provider that Dragoneer paid for hosting the site couldn't accept money from him knowing there was illegal porn on the site, even if it's a Fantasy thing and not real in the first place. That would be why his images, and that one of yours, have been removed: They either were explicit content of under-aged characters (sonic characters are included, unless displayed as obvious adults), or they looked too similar to an underaged character that they didn't want to compete it and got rid of it to be safe.

Haha, yeah, you're a little late to the party, I was there for the whole thing. In fact, I personally was accused of all kinds of fun criminal things because of the amazing hate party it started! That was a grand old time.

How's that payment provider thing coming along?
Oh, yeah, it's still a site full of giant-dicked wolftaurs peeing on each other.

While I completely agree with you... That's disgusting and absurd... but it's not breaking any real world laws. That was the issue with the provider and why it had to be dealt with immediately, and what caused the whole shitstorm. Fantasy or not, it was Child Pornography. And everyone knows that's a HUUUUUUGE red flag in America.

Except it's not child pornography, as there are no children- only fictional characters.

See, here's the problem. You could use the same logic saying that this is child pornography, to say that all the porn on this site is bestiality- which IS illegal. But that remains. So it's really just a question of what fear wins out first.

I won't inject my personal views into this argument, because it's not relevant to the matter, but you should look at it this way: If Dragoneer refused to remove the Cub artwork, and lost his service provider... That means EVERYTHING on FurAffinity is lost, without salvation. All uploads, gone, the entire site removed, people could also be arrested. It doesn't matter if we understand it as Fiction and Fantasy, and know that it was harmless. The service provider saw it as a big red flag and didn't want to lose IT'S business because it hosts a website that allowed illegal porn on it. The real world would look at it the same way. People who like FICTIONAL under-aged characters can easily translate to liking REAL under-aged children.

If the FBI got wind of that, all hell would break loose.
Recent events are really showing this now, that the internet is not without consequence.

News flash: His payment provider WAS lost. To my knowledge, he still doesn't have one!

And again, they can do this at any time, for similar reasons as I've explained. FA isn't safe for putting up these rules in any way, shape or form. Do you have any idea how many copyrighted characters are drawn fucking on this website? Which do you think is the bigger threat: a slippery slope child porn argument that any lawyer worth his or her salt could shoot down at the water cooler, or a crapload of megacorporations seeing their IP mishandled?

He would have to have found a new one, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. There HAS to be a provider here keeping this site up.

Copyrighted characters are a whole different story. Artistic Freedom and Fair Use protects fan art, which is what this is. Even so, so long as credit is acknowledged, most copyright holders can't fight against that. The most they can do, if this is a debate over commissions sold that contain images with their character, is ask for their payment for using said Copyright. I mean, lets face it. Fur Affinity isn't the only website hosting Fan Artwork of copyrighted characters. Just take a quick glance at Deviant Art and you'll see what I mean. FA is in no danger of Copyright Infringement. Now, lets say someone made a box office movie using a copyrighted character (or it's likeness) without permission. Then they'd be in some serious shit. But that's not what is happening here. What is happening here is real world Laws and real world views clashing with Internet desensitivity and fantasy. All in all... the real world will win.

In the matter of whether or not Dragoneer has/does not have a service provider, the reason the Cub Artwork is still not allowed is because that was a helluva mess that shouldn't happen twice. He's taking the simple precaution of outright barring it to cover his ass.

Y-... No, You're thinking of an ISP. Neer lost his Donation Handler.

Also, FA is making money off of it, so your argument still doesn't work.

You're probably right. I probably am... :I

What I understand of Law and Copyright has all been put out there in my arguments. I'm not an expert in the matter, but was only trying to offer an answer to your problem. This clearly got out of hand, and I apologize for instigating it.

But lets face it... Dragoneer is all sorts of jackass. There is a lot wrong with how he handles this site and especially how his staff do as well. In the end, it's still his website, and he decides what he allows and doesn't even for whatever dumb reason he gives. I mean, dude probably think's he's the Furry God! I'm sure if you ask him, he'll just say "Deal w/ it" and laugh you away, or just kick you off of FA like he's done to so many others. He's a tyrant, and it's wrong.

Can we both at least agree on THAT?

I'm gonna play Devil's advocate here and come in on the defense of Dragoneer. My opinion on this is that he probably caved to moral panic on cub art, used the Alertpay mess as a convenient excuse, and now that it's blown up in the site's face over and over, he probably sees all the inherent problems in the decision. If not, he at least must by now see the problems in the way it is enforced.

The problem there is that there's no way to put the genie back in the bottle. FA could reinstate cub art tomorrow, and it wouldn't bring people back. It would rile up the anti-cub side, cause another fiasco, and the people banned or run off still won't return. Is isn't coming back, nor are all the others that were or weren't even affected by this. (I left in protest of censorship, I don't even have cub content, for example.) It all just turned into a bad situation, and there's no winner, and no way to undo the damage.

The problem I have with Dragoneer is that he doesn't believe in anything. If he believed in logic and made his decisions based on it, that would be cold, but nobody could argue with it. If he believed in profit and decided because of that, it would be gross, but I would at least understand why.

As it stands, I have no idea how he makes decisions or why. Sometimes he stands up to The Man, sometimes he is The Man. Sometimes he chooses to do the right thing, sometimes he chooses what's expedient. I don't hate the man or whatever it is he stands for, I just don't know where he's coming from, ever. So it's impossible for me to get what he's doing and know what to expect. And that's just not a quality I look for in a leader of anything. It's sad, but I would prefer predictability.

his is why I chose not to inject my personal opinions. Honestly, I don't care two ways for the Cub art. I think it's wrong myself, but if it's what floats your boat, then whatever. I'd never be able to stop you alone, but if Dragoneer agrees and he doesn't want it on the site, then I guess I win too. I'm still probably not going to let you near my children though... If he had a moral crisis about it and his guilt won him over, then good on him. It at least shows the man has shame; it shows he's not a complete boastful, prideful ass like I made him out to be. If that's the case, fantastic. I'd apologize for ever doubting him. Still, personally, I think it's better off this way. Cub art represented something that could be far more sinister than someone's simple, little, harmless, sexual fantasy. That's my belief.

Now... If you'll excuse me, I just took medication for my sore throat. I don't want to continue arguing knowing what I say might be some loopy, sleep-deprived, drugged up opinion. I'm just going to go to bed and let you win this argument. Thank you for the time, and I'll be on my way.

Whoa. Hold up.

I'm not dangerous to children.

Just putting that out there. Kay? That smells of an accusation, and I'll never let it go unchallenged. I know you probably just said that offhand, but still, holy shit. I'm a huge pervert and kind of weird, but the only way I spoil the innocence of young people is when they lie about their age to see my porn- there's nothing I can do about that. Capisce? =|

For the record, I (and the administration) do not view you or other artists as a danger to children.

Perverted as all hell, yes, but that's what you get for drawing a herm character using hir balls as a set of drums.

Well thank fuck for that, at least! 'Cause the damn userbase is ready to put me in the Hague!

I learn more about this site everyday and not really things a Pachi should or wants to know. That was one Hell of an informative debate... ._.

the moar you know!

Haha, aww. Hope I didn't scare ya!

He has a dartboard.

Also, don't kid yourself, the FBI is well aware of this website. It's huge. It transfers a ton of traffic. They've known about it for years, they're not stupid.

AlertPay dropped FA before the whole thing started, citing this as the reason, and vowed never to work with FA again no matter what. Getting rid of cub was never going to bring AlertPay back, and in fact, wasn't the reason they did it. They did so so that they stood any chance of getting a new payment processor, which hasn't worked so far anyway because this is a website full of animal porn. So, it solved nothing, runs off a number of good artists, writers, and musicians, and is still being defended fanatically. Why?

I agree with you, that's a good question.

Btw, SoFurry didn't banned cub porn when AlertPay dropped them, there was just the following announcement on the front page: "Alertpay has closed our account. But don't worry, SoFurry doesn't depend on them or their services."

People who like FICTIONAL murder can easily translate to liking REAL murder. One toe on that slippery slope, and it's inevitable we'll all be sacrificing babies to the Elder Gods before the week is out. Therefore, anyone who watches anything violent should be incarcerated for our safety. Don't you want to be safe?!
(Prove it? Pfff. I think my unfounded assertions speak for themselves.)

And yet anyone who reads the book "The Prince" is put on a watch list for Anarchists and secretly marked a Potential Threat to Society.
I understand. It's contradictory, backwards, and all sorts of unfair. My initial comment was never made to attack Cub Artwork, but to clear up the matter of why it is not allowed, because Norithics was upset and confused as to why a good artist by any other means was removed from the site.

I completely agree with all of this. Fantasy is not Reality. There is a firm difference between what is real and what is not.

... Y-... Yeah, but... I wasn't confused on this issue. I mean, no offense, but I knew more than you did about it!

The Machiavelli book? I Googled and couldn't find any evidence of that. Do you have any links I can read?

I have "The Prince" in my phone book reader. Does that mean I'm in an anarchist list now?

The Problem with Stating SA charaters as underage is that they all generally look at the most 17 unless shown with obvious older person traites or stated highly overall that they 'ARE' above age by SEGA offical charts. In that case when charaters liek Nori's Tailsko come into play they can't fully say weither or not they are under age cause they look In almost totally out of charater to a degree where they 'Aren't Said namesake.

ANd all it takes is the Right person to talk to the Wrong Admin to have something just get pulled and ticketed on how the Admin that did it sees the art, not how the general bulk of Adminstration sees it. I've been involved and Seen stright up that one admin will ban you, and anotehr will reinstate you without even addressing the other.

That sucks.

I hope you have your images saved off-site, Nori. I try to save files I like in case the file is ever removed, such as by the artist willingly taking it down, the website failing, in case I lose Internet access, and the like.

Just to clarify a bit, I meant saving all your ar; I just save what I like, such as the pictures I've had done for me.

Wahey! =3

You've

You've -- You've violated

The LAW

Pay the
Court
A fine

Pay the
Court
A fine

Or Serve
Your
Sentence

CARTOON children. Boinking kids has a different meaning then.

I don't blame FA for having to do it at all, just that they're really, really awful at laying out specifics or any constructive and clear communication in the slightest. Their paranoia can at least somewhat be justified, sort of, but the extent of it and their mishandling of giving information really can't be.

The worst thing is that at least 90% of his submissions were CLEARLY aged up... well, as clearly as you can age up a character to "legal age" that is. Aren't most of them in their late teens anyway? Is a few years of aging really that noticeable?

Just to be safe, from now on all sonic porn artists should just draw the characters as decrepit elderly versions of themselves and hope that's old enough to pass as "LEGAL 100% ALL AMERICAN NO CUBZ HERE" sonic porn.

thanks for reminding me
I almost forgot to molest them today

We're all in this together.

G I JOOOOE

>sonic porn
OMG CUB PORN GTFO

>actual cub porn that I ticketed
oh yeah that's cub but it's not tagged as "cub" so it could just be the artist's style

true story, bro

FFFFFFHAHA

I feast upon the delicious irony.

I'm not shitting you, that's the response I got. I ticketed blatant cub porn, and the admin agreed that it was cub, but told me that it wasn't tagged as cub on INKBUNNY (what?) so it could just be the artist's style. (which it wasn't)

So I guess it's OK to post cub porn, you just have to post it on Inkbunny too and not tag it as "cub".

Except that's what  is did.
So, again.
RANDOMOSITY!

The problem with this site is that the admins are soo black and white about-
things, I'm hoping that this will keep out all the terrible sonic art.

Your wish is my command, master. *BAMF!* I've replaced it all with terrible Disney art.

Say what!

that opens YET another can of BAN-ASS!

>--sonic porn = cub porn --<
Only because canon-speaking, Sonic et. al. are underage (Sonic himself is 16). Is's Sonic porn is of characters that are, canon-speaking, underage. And he didn't go out of the way to clarify 'THIS PORTRAYS AMY AS AN ADULT' and that's the sort of stuff you have to do to get around that sort of thing.
's why your gallery's still kickin'. Your gallery is full of Sonic-style art - but not Sonic canon characters. Thus, not underage.

This is the explanation Dragoneer used when he began pulling Sonic porn off of FA. It was part of the big cub porn ban post ('Sonic characters are included, since in canon they are almost all under the age of 18').

Yeeeeah, except that's not really how it's going. There's uber-permissiveness on one end, and hyper-crackdowns on the other. So if that's the way that things had gone, sure! But it wasn't, so, there it is.

It really kills me that those teenage characters are considered little kids, yet it's perfectly okay to post any other teens in sexual situations on this site.

And actually, Dragoneer never actually placed a ban on Sonic characters, IIRC, it was some other site higher-up and Neer thought it was pretty stupid.

Wait, I thought Sonic was twenty now? Didn't Generations take place 4 years after Colors?

*No* idea. I haven't kept up with Sonic, tbh. I know that the justification for no-more-Sonic-porn was that the canon-character was 16. That's all I know.

Welp, guess that justification is out the window!!!! <('.'<) (^'.'^) (>'.')>

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyjd.....XAW1r1b66h.png

If somebody touches you in a way that makes you uncomfortable, that's NO GOOD.

By extension, if somebody touches you in a way that makes you feel awesome, THAT'S GOOD.

There's a few images in your gallery that I know for certain fail (underaged characters fairly blatent), but I haven't touched it because of past... bad encounters with people with fairly damn blatant underaged characters.

As in, flat out said the character was 15 in one submission and had an image of the same character, same design, having sex.

If you really really want, I can try to do a review of images, but... @.@

Note: You're in my watch list, I saw your journal in my inbox.

W-...
Wait.

You're afraid of me? That's why? Buddy, I don't even respond to the tickets. I've been waiting for this to happen since the announcement! I'm on Inkbunny, and I saved all the comment pages- I don't even care if it goes down here!

I'm sorry, you seem nice, but... this is your job. This is why these rules don't work. You should be doing what you're supposed to, man.

I'm afraid of drama. It gets thrown around alot. It doesn't help me much that I disliked the rule (but the arguement for it was one I couldn't disarm). There's other things that also need focussing on - other AUP violations, harassment, etc.

I can understand, but... that's kinda the job, though. When I worked as a supervisor at the old call center, I had to deal with drama, too. In real life! But I did it regardless, because if I didn't, nobody would respect me, and my position wouldn't matter anymore. You see what I'm saying? :\

I do. It's a matter of...

There are other administrators perfectly willing to handle this area, and yet don't want to deal with another. This is the only area I dislike dealing with - and I'll wade into the drama issues with no problem.

I can understand where you're coming from on that one. Which is why I eventually do step up (like in here).

Wait. You're an administrator on this site. You know for certain of a rules violation and you do nothing about it. Why? You don't want to offend someone or make them leave? This is the kind of shaky enforcement that is driving people out as it is. If you are unwilling to do something you are obligated to do as part of your position, why do you have it?

Because I do all the other work required of me? I also toss Second Life and screenshot items at another admin, because that's his speciality, and I tend to toss music to another admin, because I know furk all about music.

I'm burned out and more likely to be an ass about removing 'cub' submissions. That's why I tend to avoid it - because this can be a sensitive issue, and I know I'll likely be an ass about it. Our users deserve better than that.

That sentiment is respectable, to be sure, but there's still an overarching problem. If the administration doesn't enforce the rules with strict consistency, then how are the users supposed to do anything at all? What's it take to get something else banned next, and nebulously enforced? When everyone ends up scared to post anything, because they don't know what rules are really rules and what rules are kinda rules but not because no one enforces them, the content dries up, the uses leave, and the site dies.

That's what's happening here. I barely even come by anymore and even I can hear it on the wind. There's rampant distrust, divisiveness, and fear that wasn't there before. Something of the magnitude of censorship, whatever the reason for it, cannot be half-enforced or there's just chaos. I respect your desire to really be a people's-friend sort of administrator, but I have to question if it's a good thing to be. I'm not talking to you as a user, as that would be hypocritical. Just as one person to another reasonable person.

I hope I didn't come off as rude to you. I don't dislike you at all, per se. I just wish the administration would take a hard stance, be it a popular one or not. If anything, I don't dislike you or the work you do, in fact, I feel very sorry for you; you've been put into a very unenviable spot. I walked out on the site while my integrity was intact, but I traded away the ability to do anything to help the problem when I pulled my content and departed.

The biggest issue is the perception that the administration has ever been united on opinion. That's not the case. We're people - and the vast majority of us were users LONG before we were admins, and even then, we're still also users of the site. Members of the community.

For instance, there was an argument and discussion by one admin saying we should make profile IDs have to be general audience. This was shot down and is not going to happen, but that's part of what goes on.

There's also the idea we're omnipresent or aware of everything. That's not the case at all. Most of the time, we're unaware of other violations. Saying "Everyone posts x" isn't a defense, let us know and we'll deal with those as well.

In this case, with me and Nori's artwork... I was making the assumption (up until now) that Nori had removed everything he felt was in violation. This is called 'Assume Good Faith'. It's something I try to apply to everyday life, as well as both my real life job (Security guard for a gate) as well as administrating FA. If someone breaks the rules, excepting any obvious signs that they did it maliciously, I'm going to assume they did whatever in good faith that what they did was within the rules.

Also, to clarify, I hate the rules, and I hate the shoddy way they're being defined and enforced. I do NOT hate people who enforce the rules unless they're douchebags.

The problem is, I've tried reaching out to people to get some sort of guidelines *from the artists* that we can use. The resulting response was "NO WE CANT THERE IS NO SUCH THING CAUSE THIS RULE WAS STUPID".

As things go right now, it's "If it looks like club, we take a closer look, and judge each one individually based on context clue."

If you want to suggest some sort of guideline, remembering the two rules of thumbs we use down below, then please, I'm listening.

Rules of thumb: The Shippo Rule, and the Eustace is a Dragon rule.

The Shippo rule is "A character must be physically mature, not just aged over 18." It's named from the character from Inuyasha, where Shippo looks 6 but is like 300 years old. Porn of him is not allowed.

Eustace isa Dragon is "A character that is normally underaged may be portrayed/drawn as an adult." This refers to 'The Voyage of the Dawn Treader', where the character (normally like, 12?) is turned into a dragon. If the dragon-form is portrayed as mature, adult form, then porn is allowed.

You're askin' me to come up with a guideline to burn books. It's not in my DNA, I'm sorry. =/

Yeah, that's the exact response I was expecting. It's the same response I've been getting.

You can't make good laws on false premise. It just never works.

The problem is this:

Because of 'Porn of fictional underaged characters', we lost our Alertpay account as well as been black listed by other services. In order to properly run the site, we would need some sort of merchant processor, and the ones that handle childporn sites are kinda... scuzzy. To say the least.

This is one of the only two reasons I can not argue against, the other being a legal challenge. As early as 2007 I was arguing for keeping cub porn on the forums. So I dislike the rule, but see the reason for it and can't really suggest any alternatives.

Thusly, since I cannot repeal the rule, I must work to make it as fair as I can. But working to make it fair requires feedback from the people it would impact.

All I've been asking is some sort of guideline that could be used to determine if a character is adult or underaged. Thus far, all suggestions have been rejected, making the rules be whatever the admins come up with.

There's really nothing for it, this site is on the decline. I just post journals to vent anymore- I don't expect anything constructive, because there's nothing to be done about it.

I just hope all the cub-haters stay here this time, and leave me the dick alone.

That sort of line of thinking is what frustrates me, because I want to do everything I can to keep the site from sliding into... well, suck. It's why I became an admin; I want to help.

But helping the community website requires both work from the administrators and the community. In this topic, I haven't seen anything constructive from the community, and I keep asking for anything.

You're asking the impossible. =/

The decision was made, and now that it's been made, there's no going back. You have to enforce a set of rules that's impossible to define, because the definitions depend on an interpretation of the content and intent of artwork. I've been making a science of how to capitalize on the underage and overage parts of characters depicted fictionally. I am the number one person who should be able to help you.

And I can't. I can tell you how to hide the age of something, and how to argue its existence, legally, morally and artistically, but I can't even begin to tell you how to do this.

Even some sort of vague guideline would be a starting point. What we've got is something like http://www.drawinghowtodraw.com/dra.....proportion.png , where we check limb length, torso length and width, etc.

Also.
I have to say, I've never been someone to just casually slam a website. There are plenty of authority-hating kids out there who just wanna blame someone because life isn't fair.
Not me.

I was on DeviantArt. They've never allowed Adult Art, and so, I made a game of skirting the rules. It was fun! I enjoyed finding ways to get around things without crossing the line. But it was stifling.
Then came SheezyArt. Hawright! Porn out the yin-yang! I finally had the reigns thrown off and I could do what I wanted! Then they slammed down on it.

FA was where I went after all that, and I heard the phrase, "Everything is allowed."
"Everything??" I asked with bewilderment.
"You've gotta draw it yourself, and it's gotta be less than a certain size, but anything you can imagine, you draw it and you put it here, you pervy little bastard!"

And I was thrilled. Nothing was verboten. I was free to draw whatever I liked! I started branching from fetish to fetish, doing whatever I felt, getting and giving attention to god knows how many people! I watched people, I left thoughtful comments, I encouraged newer artists and I gave detailed compliments to the old hands! I got a ton of watchers, not because my art's all that great, but because I had a lot of ideas, and I wanted everyone to be creative with me!

Then the site got REALLY big.
Too big.
Then the rule came down.
And I said, "Well. That's not all I do, but... what if that is what I want to do?"
And suddenly FA stopped looking like the playground that I saw it as before. I started getting hassled by people for liking certain things. I started getting accused of heinous things!

And that was when I realized that FA wasn't what it once was, and nothing would make it be that again. And I was very sad.

That's a problem everywhere. I've seen it - followed the rise and fall of many many communities online.

It's whenever things get too large, rules have to be made that 'ruin' the previous playground, but otherwise the community will stop and choke on it's own waste.

Why can't I post one photo, one that is awesomely done and shows off in perfect detail - a collage of photos, actually - a most prized possession, that I brag about constantly, and is an honest work of something that people can be honestly envious of, in a good way? Because people posted shittons of photos of soda cans. Or random knives.

It's the same sorta thing. Humans need rules in communities larger than a certain number. Smaller communities can get away with it, but past a certain population limit... *shrug*

I can understand. I do understand. This is part of the reason why I dislike working that segment of the administrationing - I get treated like an evil bad person by a lot of people (I've been flat out called a Nazi, and I didn't miss the book burning reference), by the people I'm trying to do my best to help or limit the impact of a rule. I got burned out and pissed off, and felt it would be best that I didn't bring a shitty attitude to something that was already extra sensitive.

Maybe you should move on. I don't think this place deserves you anymore.

The problem is, that would be abandoning the site based on a single portion of the community. I feel I owe a debt to the *whole* community, for providing free art to me. If I leave them in the lurch, what kind of person would I be?

A person with principles.

That's the thing. My principles are, "I want to help."

If I walk away, who am I helping?

Your superiors, in understanding what the wrong thing to do was.
Your peers, in understanding what the effects of that were.
Your friends and trusted acquaintances, in setting an example of what's acceptable.

That's the thing. I dislike the rule - but I can't argue against it. It hits me in one of the two arguements I cannot counter - money and legal.

There are, however, other competing sites similar to FA that are not running into any money or legal issues. What's your current SPS provider for FA anyway now that AlertPay is gone? Why are sites like inkbunny not running into the same troubles?

Inkbunny has tiny bills.

Want to know why FA is having issues lately 503 errors? We inherited a shitty SQL system.

And we're hitting about 10,000 people connected to teh site. Distinct connections. And that's usually pages-per-minute count, like 3, 4 pages a minute rather than 15 minutes a page.

Say it's 2 pages a minute on average. That's 20k pages served and looked up and data entered and removed, ever minute. And that's a lower estimate.

We also have larger hardware, more stuff in the data center than they do, more bandwidth, etc, etc. That's... frankly it. Inkbunny and others can get away without such things. FA... can, only because Dragoneer is paying the bills out of his paycheck. The ads and donations don't really cover much of that.

That's a reasonable enough explanation on IB's monetary side of things. My question then, I guess, is if ads and donations don't cover much of your costs, why do you particularly care about SPS providers, or simply use whichever ones other similar sites use? I guess, despite my feelings on any legal issues, I must kowtow to the fact that Dragoneer is irrationally afraid of going to jail when there is no precedent for it yet, or does not want to become the precedent himself, perhaps. That is unfortunate among a lot of other words I could use but won't; but I guess I can't argue against an irrational standpoint he's making. I'll leave the legal issues down to 'That's dumb and civil rights groups would be up the government's butt in a heartbeat, even over fake-child-pornography.'

Mainly because we have plans for business ventures *beyond* just ads. Ideally, the site will find a primary source of funding from within the community that isn't a single person's paycheck. That's why we want to find another merchant account provider.

Yourself, possibly everyone else.

If one of my best administrators and one of the most respectable and reasonable people on the site is resigning in protest, you bet I'd take a long and serious look at the direction I was going. You're a rational and empathic person, and if I've stopped appealing to those traits, I would seriously have to question my judgement and redouble my efforts to fix the problems and bring you back.

"and one of the most respectable and reasonable people on the site"

You're only saying that because I'm being sympathetic. Trust me, I am not one of the most respected or considered to be one of the most reasonable people.

No, I am saying that because you're being reasonable, which earns my respect. I'm not being treated like I've come to expect to be treated on this website, and that earns some respect. That's why we're having civil discourse instead of me being banned or something for criticizing you. I'm not sided on the issue of the cub porn particularly strongly (it's the censorship that makes me mad). Heck, I've argued with you right here to just cut loose and purge it all as a viable option. (To be fair, cold logic suggests to me that that's probably the safest bet, as it alienates a relatively small amount of users compared to reinstating it or continuing on the current route with the highest effort to result basis).

You are one of the most respectable and reasonable people here, even if only to me, and I strive to be a person of strict integrity and convictions; so that should have been a compliment, not a passive-aggressive attempt to win you over to a side.

Achk. Sorry.

It's

Sorry.

You do understand that what I said is generally what happens.

User#1: Hey, Admin A, do this!
Admin A: Okay
User#1: Admin A is the most reasonable person ever!
User#2: Admin is worst person ever!

Later

User#2: Hey, admin a, do this!
Admin A: Okay
User#2: Admin A is the most reasonable person ever!
User#1: Admin A is the worst person ever!

I apologize. I'm sure you get a lot of that and you had no way of knowing my mindset in regards to that. I tend to value reason and logic whether or not it hurts me to do so. If logic is not on my side, I was in the wrong regardless of emotions involved.

Most of these arguements ARE from emotion - and nearly all the complaints about admin actions are appeals to emotion.

So, er. Yeah. *sigh*

You also owe a debt to yourself and your personal integrity. Sometimes, saying you simply cannot support something because of a direction it has taken is a much more powerful message than you can give by staying and fighting it.

Maybe. There's other portions, remember. I love nearly everything the furry fandom produces - excluding shitting dicknipples. I just don't like shitting dicknipples, or frankly, any other form of scat.

As I've said before - I'm here to help. If I leave, those people get left in the lurch. I've been saying that FA needs more manpower, and I've always been a fan of putting my money (or time or effort) where my mouth is.

Then don't leave. I'm just saying, your manpower won't fix this particular problem, as my boyfriend and I have tag-team demonstrated.

Hence why, when I first mentioned it, that I tend to stay out of this topic.

... scuzzy? ...

I really think the people who just up and cancel and blacklist accounts and hold money because of some new made up rule that they just up and decided upon are pretty scuzzy in and of themselves, anyway.

The rule is un-enforceable. It's based on an indefensible reasoning. No one can help you find a way to enforce it fairly because there is no way to enforce it fairly. You either have to purge everything that can be construed in any possible way as cub, or you have to purge the rule. That's the cold reality of it, it won't be fun, it won't be fair. But the Decree came down, and now it has to be dealt with either all or nothing. The user-base was already alienated, the distrust is already out there. Deliberating and arguing hypotheticals on a rule that can't be defended (even by your own admission to a degree) is just continuing to poison that community with more distrust and anxiety.

At that point, people shouldn't be complaining about implementation of the rules, if they refuse to give any input on HOW to implement them. We've asked. I've asked. Many times. Nada.

There are actual lawyers arguing this same notion right now to apply it to modern laws, who've spent their life studying this sort of thing. They can't come to a logical definition because there is no way to do so. It's based on a perception of art. No on in the world can give you input on this, no matter how many times you ask and no matter how hard you hope.

I've given you the only input you can get. Either enforce it with absolute strictness, (anything that is in the opinion of your ruling body to be underage, remove it, no exceptions, based only on arbitrary judgement) or do not (remove the rule and deal with the results one way or another). There is nothing else. You cannot define someone's art. It is what the creator says it is, or it's what you say it is. There is no scientific method to art.

That's why I've always asked for guidelines to look at for judgement, rather than anyting specific for removal.

I know we can't have hard and fast rules. Anyone who says that we can, is stupid. It's art. It'll be subjective.

However, by coming up with even a vague set of guidelines can help give *some* sort of uniformity.

That's true. The problem, however, is that there is no way to implement a set of guidelines. even vague ones. Powerful governments around the world are trying to enact the same law that this rule reflects right now, and cannot find any middle ground at all between the two options I have suggested to you. They ultimately end up with one or the other option and move on. If even the most powerful professionals in rule-making cannot determine a middle ground to exist, how can we?

Because we're the people on the ground, as it were, and are most involved and knowledgeable about the subject matter. We should be able to come up with something, if it is a vague guideline.

"If the limbs and torso are relatively short, the hips wider than the shoulders, butt flat, a flat or pronounced belly, more rounded limbs, larger eyes and ears, then I take a closer look."

Okay, I know I'm kinda coming out of nowhere, and this is by far not a hill I wanna die on, but in my personal opinion a good step toward reconnecting with the community you're hosting is getting rid of the "removal with no warning" policy. Especially with grey area topics like this. I admit I'm not exactly very well experienced on this matter, and I'm not sure if you or other admins do give warnings, but if you really want to get people to trust you, you need to be willing to converse with them before you take down their art. If you don't, you're essentially shooting first and asking questions later. That is no way to get people to like you.

But, again, I don't have much experience with this, since none of my work has even skirted the line so far. Only negative experience I have with admins was when one of you took down my avatar due to rule against avatars being sexually suggestive - a rule that was only mentioned in the screen to upload an avatar, and not in the AUP itself. I was naturally quite frustrated since other artists on the site are outright paid for sexually suggestive avatars, but one I took the time and effort to draw myself with the added message of "I'm taken, don't ask" got flagged and taken down without any prior warning, and the only explanation I got was after the fact. Again, this is no way to operate if you want people to respect you and your work.

You want input on how to implement the rules? There's mine. Stop taking stuff down and explaining yourself later and actually be willing to talk things out. It may take a bit more work, but I think it would cut down on the drama significantly for you and all your fellow admins.

The issue is, that used to be site policy.

Out of a hundred requests for users to police their own gallery, even noting specific items, do you know how many times we (the admins) had to go in and remove the items ourselves anyway?

98.

While we would rather do the "inform first" bit, it wasn't working. At all. The site is simply too large, and too many new issues come in for us to properly keep track of older ones.

We're always open to non-hostile discussion of why items were removed, but we also have to act on the fact that the AUP is posted and linked in three billion places. It's not even that long a document, compared to EULA documents.

But when you did that, you robbed them of the objective right to complain. They were warned. You took it down. People could criticize the rules, but not reasonably complain about your behavior. Now people have very valid grievances with the rules and your behavior.

Also, just because a bit of courtesy didn't work on its own to get the response you desired, you as a group decided that you would hide behind your admin powers and not even bother to take the high road anymore? That doesn't seem a bit off to you in the slightest? That doesn't tell you right there why very few people here like how you and your co-workers do things? Managing people takes work. If you stop extending the basic courtesy of warnings and get right to the consequences to cut down your work load, that very reasonably reflects poorly on you.

Oh, and you didn't address the fact that my avatar was taken down due to a rule that wasn't in the AUP, but was on a single page outside of it. If you had updated the AUP and that rule was right there in plain print, I would have no room for criticism. If that rule was in the AUP, it would be my fault for not reading correctly. But it wasn't. I kept checking the AUP during that incident looking high and low for the rule that said that sexually suggestive avatars were not allowed, until I discovered that somebody slapped it on the avatar upload page and called it a day. When you have an index for every rule of what is and is not allowed on the site, it should be reasonable to assume that any rule I violated would be there.

"
Also, just because a bit of courtesy didn't work on its own to get the response you desired, you as a group decided that you would hide behind your admin powers and not even bother to take the high road anymore? That doesn't seem a bit off to you in the slightest? That doesn't tell you right there why very few people here like how you and your co-workers do things? Managing people takes work. If you stop extending the basic courtesy of warnings and get right to the consequences to cut down your work load, that very reasonably reflects poorly on you."

When said courtesy, to 98% of the users, made more work for us in the long run? Yes. We went with remove first.

And seeing as I know nothing about your particular situation, I wasn't going to comment. Still not.

You want to play the selective quote game? Okay, let's play.

"That sort of line of thinking is what frustrates me, because I want to do everything I can to keep the site from sliding into... well, suck. It's why I became an admin; I want to help."

Obviously not. You're not willing to do everything you can to keep this site from sliding into suck. You say that you're willing to put a lot of effort into helping people - "I want to do everything I can" - and then outright say to me that you are not willing to do that exact same thing.

"At that point, people shouldn't be complaining about implementation of the rules, if they refuse to give any input on HOW to implement them. We've asked. I've asked. Many times. Nada."

You just got it from me. Very basic policy change that would make a lot of people a lot happier. You just aren't willing to implement it, because, again, that would require you to increase the work load that you said you would be willing to increase, and then said to me that it wasn't worth it.

What you're saying and doing obviously contradict here. That is an objective fact. What that says about you is purely subjective, so I'll keep that out of this.

Selective quoting isn't where I take an entire paragraph of what you say, and address the point in that paragraph.

And now you're selectively addressing something that isn't even the main point of the discussion.

Summercat, I'm going to be frank. I'm a nobody. I'm just a freshman in a small college out in the mountains of nowhere. And yet even I can see that you're dodging the issue at hand through a combination of ignoring points raised against you and throwing your hands up and proclaiming "I can't do anything about it." Not to mention that you're dodging it quite badly while contradicting yourself left and right. You say that you want to do everything you can to help prevent the decline of this site, but when one possibility that would increase your workload is suggested you say that it isn't worth it.

There are three conclusions that can be drawn from these facts: You're either a hypocrite, or a liar, or you're good intentioned but your commitment to your goals needs a lot of work. I don't know about anybody else on this site, but I personally am more than willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it's the third. In which case, do not expect people to respect your authority until you show that you are an authority figure worth respecting. You can espouse your good will all you want, but until we see significant effort towards that, nobody is buying it. I know you're working hard to keep this ship afloat as it is, but you're putting that work toward exercising your power over your charges and then taking the time to try to justify your actions like you are here. This is the wrong order of how a good administrator operates. Rectify this, and people will be a lot more forgiving and willing to listen, which is what you claim you want. If you don't, then you will continue to give nobody any real reason to follow your lead.

I think I'll leave it at that since I really have no other way to help besides to advise. I have no power here, I have no clout here, so advising and giving feedback is all I can do.

Regardless of whether you take my words under advisement or not, I really hope everything works out, for both you and everyone you have power over; I don't want this community to go down either.

Jumping in a day or two late, but to play devil's advocate here..

Seriously? I mean..seriously? Those are your conclusions? While the first two are perfectly acceptable as a healthy amount of pessimism. The third is where a reasonable person would come to have an issue.. It's like...having maybe a dozen police officers for an entire city, then pulling one aside and questioning their dedication to the job because they've let a few people speed 3mph over the speed limit, and don't harass every jaywalker they see!

You've clearly underestimated the workload.. It's probably a grossly conservative estimate to propose that FA gets around 8,000 to 10,000 new uploads a day. If even 300 of those were suspect of breaching the AUP, how long do you think it would take to go through all of them? Judge each of them. Decide if this one was a blatant violation, and can be removed without warning. While this one over here could be a case of an artist's style. Then send out individual tickets for each of them And there are these 50 others from the other day that queries/warnings were sent out to that need to be sifted through. Removed by artist, insult, removed by artist, insult, ignored the ticket, insult, might not have seen the ticket because of zero account activity, insult, flame, disputing the ticket, insultingly disputing the ticket, presents a fair ticket dispute, media not removed--tags altered to be misleading...and so-on.

It's likely not a matter of Summercat's willingness to go the distance not being willing enough, but the workload far exceeds the capacity. No matter how many corners you cut, you can't do 8 hours of work in 2 hours. You can't drive 60 miles in thirty minutes by driving 60mph. And no matter how clearly defined the rulebook is, you can't get every member of a community to follow it to the letter. You'll always have people who flagrantly disregard the rules--no matter how strictly or loosely enforced they are. And you'll always have people who skirt the edges of the rules, seeing how far they can toe the line before the admins give them the hairy eye.

Sorry to butt in here, but this Shippo rule is pretty...bad.

I 'get' why it was chosen, but what about someone that is just phsyically SMALL? Some people in the RL can be legal, but appear as if NOT. Some men don't really have body/facial hair, lack of height, so forth.

What about women that really don't develop what we call breasts, and are just flat-chested? Do they therefore not count because of that?

It's a horribly thought-out rule, if you asked me.

If they're small but adult, they have adult proportions. Shippo has the proportions of a 6 year old.

There are a lot of people who claim size difference, but that only works if the smaller person is physically adult.

But I'm saying that this doesn't always work. I know a 17 year old....17 mind you, but close to turning 18...that looks like he's 13.I've seen 19 and 20 year olds look as if they were still in their mid-teens.

Shippo looks like a child, but I'm saying that this is an incredibly flawed guidance, and it needs tightened up and expanded upon.

Hence it's a rule of thumb. I've been asking for feedback the entire time, but have been getting "The only thing I will say is that the rule shouldn't be a rule."

But I am providing feedback; I'm saying that it isn't enough. It can be a rule of thumb, but there are other variables that need to be taken into consideration.

The fact that Shippo IS that old is something that needs to be considered. In this case, it doesn't matter, he gives off the appearance, and therefore anyone that wouldn't know any better could probably make the case against it.

But at the same time, I'm saying that it isn't enough. Not even CLOSE to enough. Not everyone is built the same, and some people just honestly don't grow...does that mean they aren't allowed to have a sex life? We all know that's a big no.

This whole thing with Is seems to be coming off as a kind of knee-jerk reaction, and it's kind of stupid to assume that two very broad, very general ideals are enough to judge EVERYTHING off of.

There's a big problem in that there isn't a unified view on this subject, nor in how people are handling it.

The big issue was addressing the "Oh, he looks 5 but is really a 10,000 year old vampire!" type of dodges.

That's the big reason and issue for the rule to address.

and that's fine, but it's not enough.

I have a character that, upon first look at the ref sheet, could be defined as 'underage', but I've already decided that no, she isn't. I've had adult artwork done of her, and while her figure has been adjusted SLIGHTLY, she's still got a youthful look to her face.

I don't know what all I can say here, but the rules need to be redefined; in a clearer, more concise, unified way. One of the site's biggest problems is just lazily written, very broad definitions.

That's the thing - That isn't the FINAL line. That's a "We will take a closer look."

..that only applies if the person who is finding it against the rules takes it up with others; from what I understand...maybe not always the case?

But this is something that needs better definition overall. I can't honestly believe that every Admin gives input on every picture on the site that might possibly be violating the rules here. Better definitions would be a step forward, help guiding those first few steps, and give better tools to the staff.

*shrugs* Just seems to me that this is an issue that the Admin & Mod team need to come up with and define, and then enforce together.

That's the thing - we are trying. It doesn't help that we're getting damn little external input on this issue. We WANT to hear suggestions that aren't "Scrap the rule".

I will admit that I only read to this comment and stopped. However...

The problem with The Rule is that there are two ways of enforcing it and both of them suck.

Method #1: objectively. Set up specific criteria that must be met, and if they aren't met, it goes, period. My understanding (TBH: I'm one of many people who make the mistake of "clicking through" the AUP and TOS without actually reading it) is that this has not been done. It would probably also further the uproar significantly if it were done.

Method #2: subjectively. This is the most simple, but also the most ugly -- you go by the rule of "if it looks bad, it is bad". My understanding (again, knowing that I haven't done the required reading) is that this is what's going on.

Here in America we call that a Hobson's Choice. That means (for those who have never heard of such) that ALL possible choices are undesirable. Objective enforcement is almost impossible with art of this sort... and subjective enforcement is going to be spotty and random at best, because ten different people will look at a single piece of art *at least* ten different ways.

On the other hand, if ya'll nuke the rule, then there will be all sorts of other fallout... I can't speak to what that would look like, because honestly I don't know that stuff. But I can say that it wouldn't be much better than the other two options. Ya'll really have opened a fair-sized Pandora's Box here, and I feel bad for the people affected -- on ALL sides.

As for me personally... I don't have enough grasp of the organic figure (whatever that shape may be) to get a decent drawing out without a light desk involved... until I can avoid tracing, I won't post. Even then, I'll carefully evaluate the rules and see how I feel about them FIRST.

"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." ~Ben Franklin

Looks like bazeel thought combing through Norithics' gallery was going to be too hard to do and just decided to ban him.

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1285/convowu.jpg
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8716/suspt.jpg

I actually have a pic of my fursona drawn as a cub in my gallery. It was a mistake, though, since I didn't specify that he was an adult, so I just wrote that he's a chibi in the description. FA staff probably don't know the difference, so I might be safe.

I'm already a thought criminal

You've been hit by
You've been struck by
OOH!

Nori are you OK
Are you OK
Are you OK Nori?

So, Sciggles has basically driven IS off the site.

....well, that's just a fine poke to my eyeball with a sharp, not-at-all-pleasant staff of pain. :C

...and reading the comments, good to see there's not anything even remotely CLOSE to a unified front on this.

I still stand by "don't censor me," "f#ck you. If you don't like it don't view," and "Its just art."

I knew it, all those child molesters raping the childhood characters >_>

Still sorry to hear what happened

And that's why i got my ID card with me always im making out with my bf in public :3

The only thing I ever have to say on a subject like this is simple; it's cub. What is cub? NOT PEOPLE. Know who it hurts? NO ONE. As in, there is no fucking way that anything that would fall under the catagory of 'cub' could ever exist; It is more fantastical than the most inane of fantasy stories on earth. These things do not exist. So what's the harm in some knucklehead drawing them bumping uglies? Oh but THINK OF THE CHILDREN.

I'm honestly more distubed by diaperfurs, furs obsessed with characters that way literal tons, and the ilk that fall in line with that horrible chain of gross.

Of course, it doesn't help that FA is administrated by a bunch of chuckle-fuck idiots and their 'rules' are so gray-area and retarded that you could be in the clear on something with one person, but the next would somehow ban you from being able to use a computer the next microsecond. Yeah. Some leadership. It's high time that moron in command got someone onboard who could think straight for two minutes to come up with a decent set of rules and find some ACTUAL admins who can handle their job.

~Signed, a decidedly non-furry watcher who finds this all to be mind-achingly ass-backwards.

It is a complicated field to try and decipher, particularly when you bring stylisation into things... personally I just stay out of it and avoid areas of ambiguity.

I say "Who gives a crap"

Though Instant Sonic was a pretty cool guy.

I like how sciggles is going after stuff that falls into a stylistic grey area such as Sonic the Hedgehog, instead of obvious attempts to give a middle finger to FA's rules, that's a pretty awesome way of doing things.

Hm.
What-ever happened to that thing of "As long as you don't say they're underage, or they aren't obviously underage via body shape, it's fine" aspect?
Did they change that?

And also, why are sites such pussies when it comes to this kind of drawn, fictional work? Hah

I believe that was something put forth by users, not the administrators.

Because we live in a culture of fear. Fear will always win.

I could have sworn I read that in the AUP when they first banned lolicubs

I saw this shit happening back when the cub ban first hit FA.

I knew it encompassed ANYTHING underaged and basicaly is like a pre emptive SOPA/PIPA/ACTA, but JUST on a FA scale.

So many asshats got on the bandwagon saying "YAY! Your disgusting cub smut is gone!"

Now guess what? those same dumbshits are now facing the issue of "WHat?! NO! My sonic pronz!"

Unfortunatly, it's ripping down folks like us with it.

I have to wonder whether this particular decision was made because an admin finds the Sonic style to be unpleasant, or something.

I mean, it's kind of tough to "age up" characters who are 3 heads tall no matter what. There's only so much you can do in that style to make them look 18 as opposed to, uh, 17 (big difference right?).

I guess the answer is to... not draw in the Sonic style, and instead draw your hedgehogs and echidnas like so? http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/_.....ulieSukiss.png

I honestly don't know.

This is one case where I won't ever get an image of the authentic sonic characters uploaded to my acount, rather sticking to my OWN fan created characters.

To paraphrase a rather apropos quote..

First they came for the cub artists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a cub artist.

Then they came for the Sonic artists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Sonic artist.

Then they came for the MLP artists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a MLP artist.

Then they came for the feral artists,
and I didn't speak out because I was a general furry artist.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Except that I'm far from quiet.

At the very least, you are lucky enough to have such a large and loyal fanbase. Hell, when the first big scare came around that you were to be leaving FA, I set up an InkBunny account as soon as possible - just in case, of course. I haven't used it since most of the artists that I watched who threatened leaving decided to stay after all. But I know that there are quite a few artists who don't have such followings, and will either fall into obscurity in some small porn site or be forced to draw art that they don't find appealing to make ends meet. You have your haters, but they are definitely outnumbered by those who love your art and will defend your name.

Not entirely on topic, perhaps, but I felt like it was important to remind you that you've got some stuff to be thankful for, even if it's just a bunch of horny furries who will follow your porn wherever it goes... and you too, I guess. =P

I hate this stuff. It's such a hard issue to talk to people about, because people just react in an emotional way, you know, nobody likes a pedophile, and if you look at pictures of underaged characters, of course that's what they think you are!

It's honestly not really my thing, I prefer my girls full-figured and my men beardy as heck, But, all the laws about child pornography are supposed to exist to protect children, Real life children, Children that actually exist outside of people's heads!

Characters that only exist in drawings don't need protection. So why the hell do people get all riled up about drawings? It's silly.

Heheheh...AHhaahha...

I WANT TO WATCH IT ALL BURRRRN!!

I would weigh in on this but, I'm on my phone and it's one in the morning. All I can say is: don't go. I support your art. Not monitarily but I would if I could. You know very well I would. Yes, I hear InkBunny is lovely. But I have room for only one art site. And it would be a pain to upload everything. It was bad enough struggling with FiMFiction.

On the issue itself I will wisely stay quiet. I have no desire to provoke or antagonize. I have very complex (even *I* would say overly complicated) philosophical stances on cub and all the satellite consiiderations. And I apparantly know decent, hard-working and reliable folk into that. It was a surprise but that's what life so often is. Though I may be seeing sex where there is only... nah, on reflection, I know what's at the root. Anyhow, I understand the fantasy/reality divide. I keep it well separated as far as phyically possible things are concerned. So I know well you're no danger to anyone, as you said above. You're a decent chappie and good egg. So there we are.

To conclude, you're great, please stay, and I find Dr. Gwen frightening not because she is a small girl but because she has zero sense of personal space and no concept of letting people just be themselves. I hate being toched or crowded and dislike when someone can't take "no", "please" or "stop" for an answer because I can't hold out and I eventually tend to cave to annoyance and shame at not getting along. So she kinda skeeves me out in that context.

Uhhh....while Gwen has been shown as a tease, I have NEVER seen her not take no or stop as answer. Actually, in all instances where she's 'invading personal space' she's not, because the subject is WANTING the attention. >_>

Who said anything about leaving? I'm just complaining. The rules are absurd and there's no way to follow them, is my point.

Also, I'm with Luni, I don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Gwen. She's kind of a tease, and plays with expectation, but when has she ever forced herself on anyone? Unless you mean errant hugs? And those are when somebody's asking for therapy.

Yes, it may be misinterpretation. I think she scares me n general. I just feel malice from the character but an unwilled malice. Seeing her out of a therapy context might help. When she's not hugging someone or making inappropriately suggestive comments. I'm certain in normal circumstances she's lovely and kind and in no way interested in making innocent bystanders uncomfortable or making them afraid for their reputations or liberty. So, I'mm sorry for any misapprehension.

YOU BETRAYED THE LAWWWWW

LLLLAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

And then: someone "inspects" a shipment box full of bestiality manga from Japan to Westbumfuck US, goes to court, the judge says "It doesn't pass the Obscenity rule", fictional images of bestiality is made "kinda illegal, but we're really not to sure so we're just going to try to make this one guy an example to scare others", and animals or anything that can be considered an animal that is represented in a sexual manner in fictional material is considered "illegal". FA shits itself, the "I don't like porn" people shout "haha, get your dirty smut out of here!", the "I like porn" people think "I'm not even going to bother, let's just go elsewhere", and it's pretty obvious where things go from there.

I don't care what the content is, any form of censorship of obviously fictitious material (are you telling me you really think a fox with two tails that can fly with those tails by spinning them is actually indicative of a child being molested in the real world?) is just stupid :| Though, I'm just restating what most sensible people already know XD But it is nice to vent ^^


Btw, is there an "I took an arrow to the knee" remix crossed with the Imperial Guard Song? I think it would be oddly appropriate XD

this is like, what, the third time instantsonic quit FA "forever"?

"In other news, in all this time I've had a grand total of 1 submission removed for the same reasons."
What kind of pic it was? Have you uploaded it to Inkbunny or somewhere else?

as heated an issue as this is, i think the point was made WAAAAAY up in the posts; people who have standards they hold themselves too and have morals/whateverthehellitispeople have that makes them 'decent'.

people dont just start this shit, they PLAN it somehow...

I guess this is kind of "the other shoe" dropping sort of thing. The announce the cub thing last year, then wait a good length of time, then *bam* start hitting stuff that's questionably under the changes. I would almost wish they would post (on a separate site) examples of what is accepted and what is not accepted; if for no other reason so they could get their moderators on the same page. Hearing one person say "it's all in the body shape" and another say "the face needs to look older" (which brings up a whole new debate) just can get confusing.

I mean, most of my commission clients aren't nearly as picky as FA's ToS at times. ^_^

In lighter news:

I AM THE LAW!!

I'm not great at debate, but I can weigh in that I don't like the trend toward excessive censorship..

More and more this place is turning into Deviantart...

Only worse...

Yanno, come to think of it, isn't the current image of being a Furry pretty similar to being a pervert or child molester in the eyes of the unknowing? The whole thing is just sad, especially when it's being shoddily enforced.

who let you out anyways? GET BACK IN THE VAN THIS INSTANT, YOU HAVENT FINISHED YOUR CANDY

I saw the 'questionable' image in question. If the admins know of children who look like that, then either they're hideously malformed or some wicked hallucinogens are being imbibed that I want to share.

The moral of this story is: sleeping your way to the top gives you delusions of grandeur people like beating their chest and making themselves seem important, apparently. I'm vehemently, diametrically opposed to cub work, but this was just fucking dumb.

Yes, I had a pic removed aswell.

FA hasn't been the same since they did that rule.

And what did pic did they take down?


And Inkbunny, why no humans?

Let me say first FA has the right to make whatever crazy little rules about what can and cannot be submitted that does not defy the laws already set in place by the government. That being said, it's still extremely stupid. It's entirely reliant on the judgement of the admins and what they imagine it looks like. Basically, they've created a rule no one can accurately follow. Hence I respect their right to the rule, but the rule itself I have no respect for.

I think the biggest problem is that people have been conditioned through time to think that children are innocent little angels, when, quite frankly, they're just as capable of lying at age 3 as a full-grown adult. There's nothing sacred, angelic, or innocent about children. They're naive and nothing more, and as they grow, they learn to do all the things that adults do.

I mean..Playing doctor with other kids when I was little was common-place and almost 'normal'. We still knew that there would be consequences if we got caught, but we did it anyway.

This notion that children are absolutely innocent needs to die in a fire the size of the moon.

I don't condone child pornography, either, but we are talking about the differences between fantasy and reality.

Moral crusaders (and bible thumping bigots) will say that it's wrong because it depicts a child-like character engaging in adult sexual acts, regardless of the fact it isn't a real person and nobody is being hurt by it.

Others will say there is no problem with it, so long as it remains fantasy and doesn't cross into the uncanny valley of looking like an actual living child. But then there are the coincidences that occur from time to time. I've drawn things that look like things other people have drawn in the past, and found myself dumbfounded and beside myself, so it's not outside of the realm of possibility to say that it would be possible, at some point, for someone's drawn cub art to unintentionally resemble some real-life kid somewhere, and that's really all the canon fodder moral crusaders would need to start the whole mess over again.

[The following is directed at nobody in particular, if you take offense to what I am about to say, then that's your prerogative - IE, tough shit.]

Personally, though, I really think that Sonic Art is fucking OVERRATED. As much as I like some of it, most of it is fucking GENERIC, unoriginal garbage. My personal opinion is that if you can't draw anything ~other~ than Sonic Style, you're not a fuckin' artist. You're a goddamn copycatting eyeballer who couldn't draw anything else to save ya life.

It's okay to use the style as a starting point, since it's pretty simple to draw Mobians, but the time comes when every true artist needs to step away from practically stealing the style of another person and calling themselves an artist, and start doing their own shit for a change.

Also...anybody who jerks off with Johnson's Baby Lotion is technically jerking off to child porn when they see the baby on the bottle..and THAT drawing is of an ACTUAL person.

Existentially I suppose not. There's only so many set numbers of personalities there could be, so I'm bound to be like some others.

I swear every time this discussion pops up I get a major head ache either way. There are plenty of things I don't like. so I usually just ignore them and play the apathy card. I often don't care enough to make a huge fuss about it or sit around judging people.

Yeah ha ha that's ture. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't get into a massive fit of emotions over it? I'm pretty damn terrible at wording myself most of the time so I apologise if I'm not making any sense at all.

You clarified a little bit below, so that's fine.
Apathy's always an option. I can understand why plenty of people don't feel it's anything to get upset about one way or another. I wish I could be so apathetic myself sometimes!

Such things will still bother me to a degree now and then. But I find getting into a fight or a mood over it every time something that bothers me pops up isn't really gunna help matters. It's also hard when at times you actually end up being friends on on good terms with folk who upload work you take offense to. On the one hand it bothers you. On the other hand this person might be your friend and you don't want to ruin said friendship so you just let it slide. does that mean you don't have a right to be offended at said material any more? It all confuses the hell out of me to be honest.

Hurf I should also add. There are a large number of artists I watch who at times draw things I find objectionable. I could make a massive stink about, leave FA, hurl abuse at said artist as well as do all sort of other things that don't quite come to mind at the moment. But I just don't 8T Because quite often the things I really don't like rarely pop up or at least have a warning so I can make a point of passing my eyes over it.