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Montroversy Topic: Bullies Driving Gay Teens To Suicide
15 years ago
General
Recently a whole bunch of gay kids committed suicide all within a month or so of each other. And because Americans are simple-minded creatures who can only conceive of a problem once a statistical anomaly makes a common problem seem like an epidemic, we're suddenly taking an interest now. Despite the fact that this has been going on since pretty much the dawn of time.
But the news wants to blame school bullying for it. And at first glance that idea makes sense. Heck, I'll admit I thought this was a real problem for a while.
Luckily, I eventually came to my senses. "Duh! Anytime the mainstream media does everything in their power to push the idea that something is a huge problem, THAT MEANS IT ISN'T!" Have we forgotten SARS, the bird flu, the swine flu, the summer of the shark etc? (And how many people, in total, have terrorists killed in America? Compared to, say, the number of drunk driving fatalities in a single year?)
Plus, it's the well-established behavior of the teevee news, when presented with a complex problem, to either reduce it to a staggeringly oversimplified single cause, blame one of its symptoms, or just straight-up blame some utterly unrelated bullshit.
I'm not saying it doesn't absolutely suck to be bullied. And I'm also not saying that it's not possible for a sociopathic mind to torture an individual mentally until they feel they have no escape but death. But is that really what's happening in schoolyards across America? Is a schoolmate scrawling "YOUR A FAGGIT" on your desk really going to make you off yourself?
It seems unlikely.
So what, then, is a more likely culprit for gay kids feeling like they have no reason left to live?
Gee, could it possibly be THEIR MOTHERFUCKING SCUM PARENTS!?
I am willing to bet that in most cases of gay suicide, the kids were in the closet. And maybe sometimes the parents would have been accepting had they only known. But let's imagine two different households. In one, a gay teen has awesome parents who love him for who he is. And in another house, a gay teen has 'family values' parents who are no better in their attitudes than the bullies themselves. One of these teens has someone to go to when they're bullied. One of these teens has parents who will teach him how to stand up for himself (or even better, how to fight back). The other teen has parents who toss the word 'fag' around at the dinner table like it's just another word. They don't have to be überChristian, or religious at all. They don't have to even *hate* gay people. It's enough that they go along with the old idea that gays are 'others'. Gays are something alien and unwanted. It's enough just that this teen gets the idea that, if he tells his parents he's gay, they will no longer want him.
No bully can do that.
The suicide attempt is not a genuine desire to die. It is a desperate cry for their parents to see how much pain they're in. And for them to actually CARE about it.
It's something nobody in the news ever talks about, but I am totally convinced by now that the single greatest danger to children is, and always has been, parents. The news won't run that headline, because scared parents are where they get their ratings from. Virtually half of every local newscast seems to be devoted to keeping parents in a perpetual state of hyperparanoia about all the millions of things that could possibly endanger their child. But NEVER do they tell the truth and say, 'The thing most likely to fuck up your kid is your own dumb bigotry and your stupid, petty selfishness. Stop trying to force the world to revolve around them. And instead of trying to get the government to keep away everything that might possibly cause them harm, why don't you lazy whiners WAKE UP and realize that it's YOUR fucking job to do that!?'
Parents want to believe that their own children are unsoiled, blameless innocents, under siege from an evil, wicked world. In their minds, they are superheroes. When bad things happen to kids, they're convinced the blame-finger points in every direction that isn't theirs. They can do no wrong; it's the whole rest of the world that's the problem. And they'll invent bad guys by the dozens to populate their world-o-delusions; turning threats that are either minor, avoidable or completely imaginary into grotesquely inflated supervillains. Pedophiles! Unhealthy foods! Television! Video games! Pornography!
And bullies. "It's OTHER PEOPLE'S children that are the problem!"
Just stop to think about that for a moment.
Parents... blaming children... for the problems that parents cause... to children.
Christ... Ain't that a little bit like if we blamed the existence of hamburgers on cows?
Here's a link that was like a slap in the face to me: "Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and questioning youth are up to four times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers"
Here's a video about bullying which I don't agree with 100%, but he does a damn good job of presenting the side of the argument nobody wants to hear, and does it in a way where you're forced to think if you want to disagree. TheAmazingAthiest on bullies
Lastly, the best and truest satire on parenting I have ever seen was in a deleted scene from the South Park movie. (And maybe it was deleted because it was a little too true.) The parents of South Park are about to execute Terrance & Phillip at gunpoint for making a movie that contained naughty language. And because Kyle, Ike and Cartman were caught helping T&P, they're hauled in front of the guns too...
KYLE'S MOTHER: General... These are OUR CHILDREN!
GENERAL PLYMKIN They are Canadian sympathizers and they must be dealt with accordingly!
STAN'S MOTHER: But they're CHILDREN!
KENNY'S MOTHER: We can't kill these kids!
GENERAL PLYMKIN: Listen mothers, YOU'RE the ones that started all this. Don't get all emotional NOW!
STAN'S MOTHER: But we're doing all this to help our children's futures!
CARTMAN'S MOTHER: Yes, I think shooting our children would adversely affect their futures.
KYLE'S MOTHER: No... The General is right.
KYLE: MOM!!!
KYLE'S MOTHER: Boobie... This is the only way you're ever going to learn. I have an opportunity here to teach you about consequences.
STAN'S MOTHER: Sheila, you're going to far! Those are YOUR children!
KYLE'S MOTHER: YES! AND I WILL NOT ALLOW MY CHILDREN TO BE RUINED BY SMUT!!
(To Kyle) I am sorry young man, but I have had it up to here! STRAP THEM IN!
KYLE: YOU GOTTA BE FUCKING KIDDING ME!!
KYLE'S MOTHER: KYLE BROVLOFSKI, YOU WATCH YOUR LANGUAGE!!
Making a point doesn't get any more blunt or raw than that, folks.
But the news wants to blame school bullying for it. And at first glance that idea makes sense. Heck, I'll admit I thought this was a real problem for a while.
Luckily, I eventually came to my senses. "Duh! Anytime the mainstream media does everything in their power to push the idea that something is a huge problem, THAT MEANS IT ISN'T!" Have we forgotten SARS, the bird flu, the swine flu, the summer of the shark etc? (And how many people, in total, have terrorists killed in America? Compared to, say, the number of drunk driving fatalities in a single year?)
Plus, it's the well-established behavior of the teevee news, when presented with a complex problem, to either reduce it to a staggeringly oversimplified single cause, blame one of its symptoms, or just straight-up blame some utterly unrelated bullshit.
I'm not saying it doesn't absolutely suck to be bullied. And I'm also not saying that it's not possible for a sociopathic mind to torture an individual mentally until they feel they have no escape but death. But is that really what's happening in schoolyards across America? Is a schoolmate scrawling "YOUR A FAGGIT" on your desk really going to make you off yourself?
It seems unlikely.
So what, then, is a more likely culprit for gay kids feeling like they have no reason left to live?
Gee, could it possibly be THEIR MOTHERFUCKING SCUM PARENTS!?
I am willing to bet that in most cases of gay suicide, the kids were in the closet. And maybe sometimes the parents would have been accepting had they only known. But let's imagine two different households. In one, a gay teen has awesome parents who love him for who he is. And in another house, a gay teen has 'family values' parents who are no better in their attitudes than the bullies themselves. One of these teens has someone to go to when they're bullied. One of these teens has parents who will teach him how to stand up for himself (or even better, how to fight back). The other teen has parents who toss the word 'fag' around at the dinner table like it's just another word. They don't have to be überChristian, or religious at all. They don't have to even *hate* gay people. It's enough that they go along with the old idea that gays are 'others'. Gays are something alien and unwanted. It's enough just that this teen gets the idea that, if he tells his parents he's gay, they will no longer want him.
No bully can do that.
The suicide attempt is not a genuine desire to die. It is a desperate cry for their parents to see how much pain they're in. And for them to actually CARE about it.
It's something nobody in the news ever talks about, but I am totally convinced by now that the single greatest danger to children is, and always has been, parents. The news won't run that headline, because scared parents are where they get their ratings from. Virtually half of every local newscast seems to be devoted to keeping parents in a perpetual state of hyperparanoia about all the millions of things that could possibly endanger their child. But NEVER do they tell the truth and say, 'The thing most likely to fuck up your kid is your own dumb bigotry and your stupid, petty selfishness. Stop trying to force the world to revolve around them. And instead of trying to get the government to keep away everything that might possibly cause them harm, why don't you lazy whiners WAKE UP and realize that it's YOUR fucking job to do that!?'
Parents want to believe that their own children are unsoiled, blameless innocents, under siege from an evil, wicked world. In their minds, they are superheroes. When bad things happen to kids, they're convinced the blame-finger points in every direction that isn't theirs. They can do no wrong; it's the whole rest of the world that's the problem. And they'll invent bad guys by the dozens to populate their world-o-delusions; turning threats that are either minor, avoidable or completely imaginary into grotesquely inflated supervillains. Pedophiles! Unhealthy foods! Television! Video games! Pornography!
And bullies. "It's OTHER PEOPLE'S children that are the problem!"
Just stop to think about that for a moment.
Parents... blaming children... for the problems that parents cause... to children.
Christ... Ain't that a little bit like if we blamed the existence of hamburgers on cows?
Here's a link that was like a slap in the face to me: "Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and questioning youth are up to four times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers"
Here's a video about bullying which I don't agree with 100%, but he does a damn good job of presenting the side of the argument nobody wants to hear, and does it in a way where you're forced to think if you want to disagree. TheAmazingAthiest on bullies
Lastly, the best and truest satire on parenting I have ever seen was in a deleted scene from the South Park movie. (And maybe it was deleted because it was a little too true.) The parents of South Park are about to execute Terrance & Phillip at gunpoint for making a movie that contained naughty language. And because Kyle, Ike and Cartman were caught helping T&P, they're hauled in front of the guns too...
KYLE'S MOTHER: General... These are OUR CHILDREN!
GENERAL PLYMKIN They are Canadian sympathizers and they must be dealt with accordingly!
STAN'S MOTHER: But they're CHILDREN!
KENNY'S MOTHER: We can't kill these kids!
GENERAL PLYMKIN: Listen mothers, YOU'RE the ones that started all this. Don't get all emotional NOW!
STAN'S MOTHER: But we're doing all this to help our children's futures!
CARTMAN'S MOTHER: Yes, I think shooting our children would adversely affect their futures.
KYLE'S MOTHER: No... The General is right.
KYLE: MOM!!!
KYLE'S MOTHER: Boobie... This is the only way you're ever going to learn. I have an opportunity here to teach you about consequences.
STAN'S MOTHER: Sheila, you're going to far! Those are YOUR children!
KYLE'S MOTHER: YES! AND I WILL NOT ALLOW MY CHILDREN TO BE RUINED BY SMUT!!
(To Kyle) I am sorry young man, but I have had it up to here! STRAP THEM IN!
KYLE: YOU GOTTA BE FUCKING KIDDING ME!!
KYLE'S MOTHER: KYLE BROVLOFSKI, YOU WATCH YOUR LANGUAGE!!
Making a point doesn't get any more blunt or raw than that, folks.
Also, my school's GSA is doing an assembly to raise awareness for LGBT students, and they have an Ask A Gay Man thing. I get to be the gay man that people ask questions to! :D
Although, when I think about it, this is just the kind of well-meaning but rather patronizing stuff I remember my schools doing too. 'Ask a gay man'? As if one of you knows what all of you are thinking? ;)
It's more of just a thing to figure out what the school climate is.
"Gay people all love jet skiing. And sno-cones. Can't get enough of 'em. Also, when you come out as gay, the Head Gay will come to your house and give you a tiny button with a radio transceiver in it, so you can be issued your gay orders.'
Reassure yourself with this fact though: Every ten years, psychologists have recalibrated standard IQ tests, so that the score the average person gets is always called 100. Every single time they've done this, they've had to adjust upwards. So even though there certainly are a lot of stupid people in the world today, the average person of today would score a 150 back in the fifties. That's nearly genius level.
As for the consequences, no. These days, there's a hundred, thousand things that can be wrong with someone as to why they act the way they do. Bi-Polar, something that's genuine, in my opinion has been severely bastardized to give somebody with a bad attitude an excuse and doctors money to throw pills at. ADHD, ADD, and all that good stuff (which are excuses that I've heard as to WHY people bully) are just stupid excuses so that the children have no blame in their actions, and the parents can just say they were born that way. They're special. They're expressing themselves. It's ridiculous.
And again, a lot of that stuff comes from lack of discipline, which I've also noticed. People are scared of their kids these days. Their offspring can treat them like shit, and a belt to the behind fixes said problems. But no, not in this day and age where parents live under the constant fear of child abuse charges for doing so. That's where I've also seen bullies come from. Homes with no discipline. No, when a child bullies, that's everyone's fault. When someone kills themselves, that's everyone's faults. And it ranges far beyond school. It ranges to home, it ranges to church, to youth groups, to just...groups in general. And it's sad and ridiculous.
When parents own up and act like parents. When kids own up and realize that harming someone is wrong, regardless of HOW you were brought up. Then our school systems, our homes, and our lives can become easier and move up, and move on. And in the end, we wouldn't have to have things like Spirit Day, we wouldn't have another Columbine, and we won't have to have another Virginia Tech.
>That means that there had to be a step between initial stress and suicide. That step IS bullying. It's usually the catalyst that will cause it, but in the end, that's only WAY after they realize they have nothing, and no support from anybody.
That's a very good point. And it illustrates how the news media thinks. Teen suicide is a problem with many layers. But they glance at it and see, "Hey, these kids were bullied! That must be the cause! If we get rid of bullying, there'll be no more suicides!" There are all srts of things wrong with this thinking. For starters, there will always be some suicides and we can never prevent them all. Secondly there will always be bullying, and no law can change human nature. But thirdly, the news seems incapable of understanding that a problem may have MULTIPLE causes, and that not all of them do the same amount of damage.
>ADHD, ADD, and all that good stuff (which are excuses that I've heard as to WHY people bully) are just stupid excuses so that the children have no blame in their actions, and the parents can just say they were born that way. They're special. They're expressing themselves. It's ridiculous.
ADHD is probably the most overdiagnosed bullshit on Earth. The Onion did absolutely the best satire ever on it here: http://www.theonion.com/articles/mo.....thful-ten,248/
And I definitely think that blaming mental illness for everything a person does is also bullshit. There are some cases in which individuals are so nutzo they can't tell right from wrong. But I've been in psych wards five different times and I'm crazy as a fucking loon. I've never used it as an excuse for things that are within my control. Without going into detail, yeah, I have a definite mental illness. I still understand the consequences of my actions though. And so do most crazy people. There's only a handful of conditions I've heard of that really do diminish your capacity; schizphrenia and retardation among them. Definitely not bipolar.
And again, a lot of that stuff comes from lack of discipline, which I've also noticed. People are scared of their kids these days. Their offspring can treat them like shit, and a belt to the behind fixes said problems.
That's where we disagree. This is a false dilemma; either lack of discipline or spank/hit the kids. Everything I've seen on physical violence as discipline says that, in the long term, all it does is make the kid resent the parent and teach them how to use violenc on others. When you obey out of fear, you come to hate the person making you feel that way. It's entirely possible to discipline a kid without beating them up. But that's not as quick and easy a solution and we've already discussed how people just want quick, easy solutions.
>we wouldn't have another Columbine, and we won't have to have another Virginia Tech.
Actually... We still would. Those were acts of sociopaths, and statistically, society will always have them. The Columbine kids weren't bullied anyway; that's just how the news spun it.
But I agree though; teaching responsibility is good. And if we really want there to be less bullying, I totally agree with The Amazing Atheist; we need to stop telling kids not to retaliate. Most bullies are like any natural predator; they want easy prey that won't fight back. Society is basically teaching children how to be what bullies want. It's bullshit to teach a child, 'Violence never solves anything'. What you ought to teach them is, 'Violence is a last resort that you shouldn't ever want to engage in. But sometimes people will force you to.'
Everyone cites the "H" in ADHD, and think that that's all it really is. If that were true, I'd be right with you in saying it's just a false diagnosis of normal childhood behavior as some type of mental disorder, but I'm sad to say it ain't so. The hyperactivity symptom doesn't even exist in a lot of the cases; the main, overarching problems are constant mental background noise, and an impaired ability to pick out a focus and stick with it. It's not so much that they can't focus, but more that they focus on EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME FOREVER, and can't turn all the other stuff off.
Also, many children with the condition end up carrying it into adulthood.
I'm also beginning to get suspicious of the sudden explosion in Asperger's cases...
>it kind of turns it into The Boy Who Cried Wolf, which is no good for anyone.
<nods> Totally what I was thinking.
>As for your experiences, that's pretty shocking thing for any parent to do... =/
It's strange for me to realize that on one level, and on another, remember living it as a kid and not having any idea how abnormal it was.
I've had parents GLARE death at me over politely asking their child away from broken glass... WTF? I stop the kid from getting potentally injured and i get that? People need to shut up and take responciblity for their actions. Only when they do that will people figure out what kinda bullshit they are doing to not only their kids.. but this world around them.
It hurt to read that. Fucking parents...
>As a "retailslave" i see so many crazy people and even crazyer parents that i wonder when its all gonna fall appart.
The other day I'm in Burger King. A family comes in; kids are pretty little. Girl says, "I want McDonalds!" Dad says, "This isn't McDonalds." Girl says, "Then I don't wanna eat here!" So, instead of telling her that it's the same damn food at either place, He Actually Leaves To Go To McDonalds. Jesus Balls.
I've heard enough of all this to never move to America. No offense meant, but seems like the majority is very, very stupid. Are all the smart people to busy laughing at the rest to speak up in the news?
Wow, that did come out offensive...
Guess there's no nice way to say that...
Guess there's no nice way to say that...
<chuckle> I've felt it from time to time. Sometimes it's best to just let it out. ;)
Oh, I absolutely do. I absolutely acknowledge that most bullies are cowards at heart and can probably be gotten rid of with a good solid kick to the nuts. But others are fuckin' sociopathic little hellions who stalk and torment someone endlessly.
>"It ended up with me threatening them and police getting involved before they stopped."
In that case, my main argument still stands; where were that kid's parents? If I taught my kid to fight back against bullies, I wouldn't just say, 'Okay, you're on your own.' If he was getting stalked and harassed at school, I'd get involved and do every damn thing I could to make it stop, including getting the police involved if it came to that. I'd also teach my kid the importance of dealing with situations individually; knowing ahead of time what's the most likely way to deal with different types of bullies. What it all comes down to is, parents need to actually teach their kids stuff.
Actually, the title's meant to be ironic, since my essay is NOT abut bullies driving teens to suicide.
Anyways I just thought I'd mention that.
That is some truly evil news manipulation. Whoever was responsible for that should be freakin' fired. And probably caned.
I absolutely don't think that all parents are like mine. My mother was a textbook sociopath. She's absolutely on the far end of the spectrum. Most bad parents, I think, really try to be good parents. The problem is, they get terrible fucking advice. This culture always wants the big new easy answer to parenting questions, yet it also wants to cling to retardedly outdated 'family values' ideas from the past. If I'm pissed at parents for thinking they're gods and their kids are angels, I'm equally pissed at the culture that continually feeds them that idea.
I'm not trying to belittle you or anything. It just seems to come up a lot with you, you know?
Part of it may be due to the fact that I have wonderful parents and find it a little... eh. Insulting? I know it's not directed at my parents, but.
The only true value in life is hope, when its all but gone then thats when things get scary
Mainly id say its when you have no one to love, to look to for suport that physicaly there to cry on,
Absolutely agreed. I know depression intimately. I almost always feel better just to talk with a friend on the phone, but when I'm in the midst of a depression, it whispers at me that the best thing to do is curl up in bed and brood on everything that sucks.
You're totally right that it's depression, probably more than fear, that fuels suicides. Though fear can lead to helplessness, which can lead to the kind of hopelessness that breeds depression.
Probably one of the most useful things to say to a kid is "NEVER, EVER be like your parents. Ever. You can always do something better."
I also agree with Shiro. Depression is very common among teens, mainly due more to pressure from school. (And also relevant to this topic, I almost committed suicide and even hated my parents even more for not giving a shit about me almost doing it)
Also, the GSA is being moved to next week. Not because I wasnt prepared, it's just that ill be gone from school half the week. And I dont want to start and IMPORTANT club and then disappear for a while, haha.
I want to give you a hug and a bucket of money for that sentence. :)
>(And also relevant to this topic, I almost committed suicide and even hated my parents even more for not giving a shit about me almost doing it)
I'm truly sorry to hear that. I've never actually tried it, but I did once threaten it, to try and get my Mom to freakin' SEE how deeply I hurt.
>Also, the GSA is being moved to next week. Not because I wasnt prepared, it's just that ill be gone from school half the week. And I dont want to start and IMPORTANT club and then disappear for a while, haha.
Hey, you could use it as an opportunity to teach them about self-reliance! <rimshot> ;)
Pls?
"There is a strong link between bullying and suicide. Bullying leads to several suicides every year. It is estimated that between 15 and 25 children commit suicide every year in the UK alone, because they are being bullied." From the Wikipedia entry on bullying.
http://www.jaredstory.com/
http://www.bullyonline.org/schoolbully/cases.htm
I got a few other things here, but my best advice would be to just Google "bullying suicide". This is a theme I touch on in my main story (if you remember it), but I don't harp on about it: bullying can be massively damaging to school children/teenagers, and yes it can result in depression, suicide and plummeting grades.
If the bullying itself isn't so nasty and seems so hopeless that the kid offs himself, it could be due a depression spiral. People who get depressed tend to put themselves in a position to get even worse, until eventually every day and every event is just awful to them.
Though your main point is definitely true: this entire attitude towards homosexuals is making children fear for the future, for their own parents' love.
Frankly, can I quote that motherfucking bit there? This big chunk here?
"It's something nobody in the news ever talks about, but I am totally convinced by now that the single greatest danger to children is, and always has been, parents. The news won't run that headline, because scared parents are where they get their ratings from. Virtually half of every local newscast seems to be devoted to keeping parents in a perpetual state of hyperparanoia about all the millions of things that could possibly endanger their child. But NEVER do they tell the truth and say, 'The thing most likely to fuck up your kid is your own dumb bigotry and your stupid, petty selfishness. Stop trying to force the world to revolve around them. And instead of trying to get the government to keep away everything that might possibly cause them harm, why don't you lazy whiners WAKE UP and realize that it's YOUR fucking job to do that!?'
Parents want to believe that their own children are unsoiled, blameless innocents, under siege from an evil, wicked world. In their minds, they are superheroes. When bad things happen to kids, they're convinced the blame-finger points in every direction that isn't theirs. They can do no wrong; it's the whole rest of the world that's the problem. And they'll invent bad guys by the dozens to populate their world-o-delusions; turning threats that are either minor, avoidable or completely imaginary into grotesquely inflated supervillains. Pedophiles! Unhealthy foods! Television! Video games! Pornography!"
That's possibly the best way I've ever seen this put. I've tried to say this a billion times in my own journals. Not sure I was ever that eloquent.
Is it any wonder that the person most likely to murder a child is their own mother? I think that sums the entire bloody issue up.
One hundred percent correct. The only thing I disagree with is the assertion that bullies can't make a victim suicidal by themselves. Sometimes the parents would help, but the victim keeps their own suffering to themselves, afraid of the consequences if their parents tried to help. It actually even makes sense from a child psychology point of view, since children from roughly ten upwards are trying to forge their own path, become an adult and attempt to stop being so dependent on their parents.
Yeah, this guy's a bit of an ass. I do believe we shouldn't be glorifying suicide, but society glorifying suicide isn't going to make child prodigies, smart, decent young people kill themselves. That's... killing themselves. It's a big fucking deal. Remember your teachers asking you if you'd jump in front of a truck if it was cool? If you have to cave in and you kill yourself, you must've suffered a lot of mental stress, and it's not easy to convince yourself to commit suicide.
I like how the most fave'd comments on that video are people telling him he's a jackass.
That said, I have to say, I do believe that "Zero Tolerance" is nonsense, and kids should be allowed to defend themselves if they're bullied. I actually had an argument with a teacher about this when I got attacked once in school. But yeah, there's a slight problem, Mister Atheist: people who are bullied usually don't have the mental or physical strength, the violent, killer instinct, to just smack bullies down. Even if they do, they just retaliate even more vindictively.
Nobody picks on Musclebound Mike with his biceps and boxing gloves. They're going to pick on Little Larry, who's a foot shorter than the other guys and is shy and easily scared. I've never got people who do this: you clearly were not bullied if you think this stuff is relevant. I got bullied by fucking pseudo "gangster" teenagers, and had to sneak my way home every day after school to avoid letting them figure out where I freakin' lived, or letting them catch me in an alley (they did once). Mild teasing you can sort out with a book upside the head is not bullying.
It's very, very fucking damaging and it's very hard to sort out, no matter how tough you think you are. As Amazing Atheist there says, bullies understand violence... they also understand "attacking in groups" and "psychological warfare" and if you can't match them on those fields they're probably going to make school pretty unpleasant for you.
Okay, you make good points. I'm not saying it doesn't happen; I'm saying that the depression spiral you mentioned *shouldn't* happen if the kid's parents are strongly supportive. And now that I think about it, I really ought to have directed my anger at the schools too, because I've heard SO many cases of schools not doing a goddamn thing about bullying because they're afraid of being sued by the bullies' parents. (And I should also mention the government that won't give the schools enough money to defend against such lawsuits.)
But right there, I've demonstrated my other point: Bullies are not the sole cause. There's justified blame to give to the bullies, the parents, the schools and the government. Bullies are always going to happen, because people will always be assholes. But bullies will have more power in a system that doesn't even try to stop them.
Think of it this way: You live in an apartment, and it has bedbugs in it. Blaming the bedbugs for driving you crazy is fruitless in the long term, because they're just doing what bedbugs do. You're more likely to get rid of them if, instead of targeting individual bedbugs, you put the blame on the buildig's owner for allowing the bedbugs to get in in the first place. Bedbugs and bullies can only thrive in environments where no one does anything to stop them.
>That's possibly the best way I've ever seen this put. I've tried to say this a billion times in my own journals. Not sure I was ever that eloquent.
Thank you very, very much. :)
>Is it any wonder that the person most likely to murder a child is their own mother? I think that sums the entire bloody issue up.
Americans want to pretend that, so long as a family has a mom and a dad, there'll be no problems in it. 'The family', as an idea, is elevated to godly status. In reality, there are plenty of dumb, mean assholes in any group of humans. And if they have kids, they're not suddenly going to become perfect people. Like a lot of our problems, we want to cling to the perfect image because it's so much easier than facing up to the ugly reality.
>One hundred percent correct. The only thing I disagree with is the assertion that bullies can't make a victim suicidal by themselves.
Don't worry, I didn't say that. I was just making a distinction between the average not-too-much-of-a-threat bulllies who are cowards at heart and easily dealt with, with the rarer but more dangerous truly cruel motherfuckers. Every school has a couple; the ones who just genuinely enjoy making people suffer. THOSE are the ones perfectly capable of driving someone to suicide.
Part of the problem is, the news and schools just make a big deal about 'bullying'. They don't make any kind of distinction between different kinds of bullying. I've heard a lot about, 'Bullies just come from bad homes!'. and that may be true for SOME, but it's dangerous to make a kid believe that's true for ALL of them.
>Sometimes the parents would help, but the victim keeps their own suffering to themselves, afraid of the consequences if their parents tried to help. It actually even makes sense from a child psychology point of view, since children from roughly ten upwards are trying to forge their own path, become an adult and attempt to stop being so dependent on their parents.
Very true. Still, it'd be nice if there were more than just two solutions presented to parents; either go to the school and raise hell, or do absolutely nothing.
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>I do believe we shouldn't be glorifying suicide, but society glorifying suicide isn't going to make child prodigies, smart, decent young people kill themselves.
I don't think he really believes that either. A lot of that part felt more like he was simply trying to make people uncomfortable; take their beliefs apart with logic and absurdity just to get them to start questioning them. In a lot of his videos, he starts out like that, and then gets more serious by the end.
>That said, I have to say, I do believe that "Zero Tolerance" is nonsense, and kids should be allowed to defend themselves if they're bullied.
FUCK YES.
>But yeah, there's a slight problem, Mister Atheist: people who are bullied usually don't have the mental or physical strength, the violent, killer instinct, to just smack bullies down. Even if they do, they just retaliate even more vindictively.
Parents could take their kids to self-defense classes. And I really like TAA's stepdad's advice; if the bullies have an advantage of strength, then fight sneaky. If I had kids I'd totally advise them, if they ever got in a fight, to go for the crotch, throat or eyes and kick and bite as hard as they fucking can. I'd teach them that sometimes it's important to have a fair fight. But if someone brings a fight to you, and you make it clear you don't want it, then if they go ahead anyway, you shouldn't feel bad about ending it any way you can.
Regardless, I'd let my kid know that I will back him no matter what he decides to do. If he wants to fight, I'll teach him. If he wants to go to the cops, I'll make the call.
>I got bullied by fucking pseudo "gangster" teenagers, and had to sneak my way home every day after school to avoid letting them figure out where I freakin' lived, or letting them catch me in an alley (they did once).
In that case, I'd give my kid a cell phone with a good camera in it and tell him to hide it in his pocket, turn it on and let it run. Get some audio and video proof to show the principal, and the police if the school won't do shit.
Whatever happens, I would tell my kid that it's ALWAYS better to fight back. Sometimes it's easier than you'd think. And even when it is hard, it's worth it in the long run. I'd teach him that life doesn't get any fairer than school; that there will always be people who fuck with you. I'd teach him thatsometimes you have to learn to endure, and sometimes you have to strike back so hard your opponent won't even think of messing with you again. I'd teach him that physical pain fades far sooner than emotional pain. And I'd let him know I'd always be by his side if he fought back and the school tried to punish him for it.
"Hey dad! That bully who kept chasing me after school and beating me up? I broke his nose!"
"Fuck yeah, son!"
"The principal suspended me for a week though..."
"Well, look at it as a five-day vacation. Let's go get some ice cream!" ;)
You know, because I just wanted to help kill any last shred of faith you had in humanity. Of course that presumes you have any left at this point. =3
I have to say though, it's not that the government should be throwing money at schools to help them defend against lawsuits but that judges should be a little more reasonable when it comes to demanding people hand out money. After all, if I could prove a school was negligent or acting against the best interests of their young charges in order to prevent lawsuits, I'd bloody sue them for THAT.
It is definitely true that bullying needs to be nipped off at the root, and the bullies themselves, especially young ones, aren't necessarily the first targets were should aim for. The problem that I have is that frankly people have completely ridiculous ideas of what bullies do and how to cope with them. More on that in a second...
"Americans want to pretend that, so long as a family has a mom and a dad, there'll be no problems in it. 'The family', as an idea, is elevated to godly status."
Hilarious really, when you consider the commonness of non-typical families in America (and indeed the entire world).
"They don't make any kind of distinction between different kinds of bullying. I've heard a lot about, 'Bullies just come from bad homes!'. and that may be true for SOME, but it's dangerous to make a kid believe that's true for ALL of them."
This is embarrassing, since they've actually fucking DONE the research. Psychologists already know and have been trying to tell us for years: all of this is bullshit. Bullies are not necessarily from bad homes, and they're definitely not all cowards at heart or something like that. A lot of the time they can just be honest-to-god psychopaths or... well, a recent study showed that fifth graders here (in my city) are the most likely age-group to bully one another. Some of the different shades of bullying include "genuine psycho" and "typical kid being a dickhead".
We damn well better try to discern between them, because "just punch them!" will get your kid positively murdered by the first type and in deep shit for hitting the second type.
"Haha! Got your hat!"
"Oh yeah?! *suckerpunch!*"
"WAAAH! This is the worst eleventh birthday ever!!"
"Oh shit..."
"Still, it'd be nice if there were more than just two solutions presented to parents; either go to the school and raise hell, or do absolutely nothing."
That's the dilemma for you. If mommy comes in to help, your social standing just took a massive fucking blow. If not, you just have to suffer it. That's one thing I'm going to say now before I return to the subject later: this is why the "clever" method of dealing with bullies (ie, telling teachers or authorities, suing them or anything convoluted and technically non-violent like that) _might_ simply not work. You're a kid, in a system, in a social setting, and if you do something like that you become known as "the psycho-coward who gets people expelled for teasing him" and you suffer for it. This is an important thing: kids are in an environment where certain options may SEEM available to people who aren't in their situation, but in truth they absolutely are not.
"Parents could take their kids to self-defense classes."
I'm a purple-belt in Jujutsu. I've TAUGHT self-defense classes (ok, assistant teacher, but shut up!), have done since I was fourteen, and my current "hobby" is MMA (cage-fighting). Not saying I'm a bad-ass, but let me just say I know what I'm talking about here. Namely: I know what I CAN'T do.
Only in movies do you easily take on multiple opponents at once, and when you're a shy, non-violent kid faced with multiple opponents, there are several reasons why "self-defense classes" don't mean jack shit.
1. Ever heard of a McDojo? So few schools actually teach children how to effectively defend themselves that this is already laughable. We martial artists argue all the time over what styles are actually effective, and you can't expect parents to know. You'd have to teach your kids Krav Maga, Israeli Defense Force style just to know for sure you've taught them to actually fight instead of have a false sense of confidence. And good board-breaking/kata-dancing abilities. It's hard enough when dealing with adult self-defense, but teaching children to fight, to confidently put fist-to-face and deliberately hurt another human in realistic fights? Almost nobody teaches that to kids.
2. Fighting multiple opponents is pretty much game-over. You're not going to whoop the ass of five attackers when you're a small, skinny little fourteen year old. You might be able to piss them off and run, or you might just piss them off and suffer for it. Then they target you again later. First rule of self-defense: RUN first. Thing is, when you or I am attacked at the local pub, we can run and never see our attackers again. I had to deal with my attackers every day.
3. Telling them to use "cheap tactics" is a good idea, but then they'll use them on you. In fact, they might use them first (after all, they'll be more confident and aggressive than you, and most bullies and criminals have no compunctions about hurting others). This is important with self-defense in general, Alex: don't fight the criminal trying to take your wallet, he'll kick your ass. Why? Because he's a CRIMINAL. They get into fights all the time, so they have practice and confidence. You'd better have the right training to even try to match that. At the end of the day, if like my example there was six of them, forget it, nothing will let you win -- only run, then you have to deal with them tomorrow, and they'll be pissed off.
"In that case, I'd give my kid a cell phone with a good camera in it and tell him to hide it in his pocket, turn it on and let it run. Get some audio and video proof to show the principal, and the police if the school won't do shit."
In my case, I didn't have a phone with a video and even if I did I wasn't going to bring it out around them to activate the camera. The sad fact, Alex? The school and police wouldn't have done jack-shit anyway. I was attacked by fellow teenagers who at most would've got a month in the detention center, which I knew a bunch of them thought of as a holiday. It wasn't a problem for them.
I don't know where people suddenly got the idea that bullies are only armed with mean-words and cruel giggles -- if I asked my mother about the bullies she dealt with, we're on the same wavelength. You're not necessarily just talking about kids that point and laugh meanly at others when you're talking about bullies -- a lot of them are very much like the ones I'm describing here. My experience is nothing if not pretty common, especially in poorer schools.
"Whatever happens, I would tell my kid that it's ALWAYS better to fight back. Sometimes it's easier than you'd think."
True, though sometimes it's harder than you might think. If you haven't actually been attacked, you're going to have a very over-inflated idea of what you can do in such a situation. VERY over-inflated. I'm sorry if I'm sounding depressing, but this is my point: a lot of the time there is VERY little victims can do. Going to the authorities/parents is out of the question, and taking the bullies on is completely out of the question, so this is where the depression comes from and why these kids start to truant.
That said, buddy, I hope one day you're allowed to adopt or something. This attitude is what more parents need. At least you talk about teaching kids to fight; shit, I've had it with these pussy-parents refusing to even let their kids watch a kung-fu movie. "Self-defense is one of life's most important lessons, and it needs to start young."
Only oooneee gripe: "I'd teach him that life doesn't get any fairer than school; that there will always be people who fuck with you"
Yes it does. No, seriously. I've never felt as impotent and threatened as I have in school, trapped in a large public high-school with fuckbends who come to school armed, drunk and looking for trouble (incidentally, when I first met you was about half-way through all this -- half my emails to you were written in class time =D). Since then, I've worked, gone out fairly often and experienced life quite well in my short life. Unfair, spiteful teachers? Trapped in over-crowded rooms full of unruly dipshits with nothing better to do than pick on others? More rules and regulations at the expense of rights (you're a teenager, for christ's sake, they have no fucking rights!)? Of course things are better when you leave school. I'd say my worst years of life were my teenage years, and my work-mates are five times as appealing as my classmates were.
Just saying. People might try to fuck with you, but school sucks and society treats teenagers like dirt.
However, I think that we do agree on one central idea; the issue of bullies has so many possibilities and consequences that every individual case needs to be handled individually. That's the one idea that'll work best, and the one people are least likely to listen to. America loves its one-size-fits-all solutions. :/
Absolutely. I'm just saying, this problem has many different causes. Bullies are one of many; let's not blame them for the whole thing and think that getting rid of them will make everything better.
>Our deeply ingrained (and forced) puritan culture is responsible for more suicides than I think we could ever hope to imagine.
I'm sure you're right about that. Plus, it's human nature to fear the outsider. The best thing, I think, is to reach out to the outsider kids and teach them, 'Don't TRY to be a part of the herd. The people who dick with you? They're assholes. Suppress your desire to want to be like them. Seek out other kids like you. Be yourself. Take pride in being different and learn to laugh smugly at their hatred of you." ;)
Though, knowing this country, the theocratic bureaucracy here would manage to fuck up that, too, and find a way to reverse it so that only psychopaths would be allowed to raise kids, and the people who'd make wonderful parents would be banned from having kids due to "not being pro family values enough" or some shit. ><
Damn, need sleep. Am in a ragey mood as of late, and coherence is at an all-time low level for me XD
That is EXACTLY why I don't think there ought to be some kind of 'parent test'.
On the other hand, I DO totally think that parents who've been convicted of horrible child abuse should be forcibly sterilized. ;)
What was my point again?
Not every suicide attempt is a cry for help. Some see no chance for help and only want to end it, some see it as a chance for revenge on anybody who may have claimed they cared and then offered no help, or they expected them to offer no help.
I do totally understand. The problem with trying to make strong points in essays is that, I realize that things aren't always one certain way, but if I clarify that every single time, it breaks the flow of the point I'm trying to make. But still, i do appreciate it when people point things like that out, since it gives me a chance to clarify in the comments.
Also, The Amazing Atheist may have been speaking tongue-in-cheek, but he may also be onto something in saying that criminalizing bullying may lead to more suicides. We've all seen the cliche of the person contemplating suicide and thinking, 'Once I'm dead, THEN they'll all be sorry!' What if, by killing yourself, you could get all your bullies thrown in jail? It may or may not ever actually happen, but it demonstrates how this is yet another poorly-thought-out solution to a complex problem. Something bad is going on, the usual reaction by stupid people is to 'get tough' on it. <eye roll>
And whenever there's controversy and anger about an issue, at least it means it's being acknowledged. It means people care. It means actions are being taken.
It is the greatest joke of existence that in order to create real peace all must absorb the negative energy while returning none. If this is diligently observed by all simultaneously, over the centuries planetary peace may be possible... For the past ten thousand years or so, I can't recall a group larger than what could be called a tribe achieve even the first step of agreeing to avoid propagating negative energy. In this new world with its information superhighway and reliable scientific study, humanity with all of it's resources has shown us that they would rather propagate fear for profit than propagate peacefulness for it's own reward.
I recently read about that kid who committed suicide after his roommate caught him on webcam having gay sex and then posting it on the internet. I have to ask: is it bad that the only thing I can think of is "You idiot! Don't kill yourself, kill your asshole roommate! And then videotape that and post THAT on the internet!"
And yes, I've seen that George Takei video. It's good, but not as good as his astronomically epic pwning of Tim Hardaway on the Jimmy Kimmel show.