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The rule of 34 -AND- Sometimes ideas suck
14 years ago
I'm warning you now, I'm gonna ramble on for a good long while with this one, and there's no important point to it.
So as I color in a commission that'll only be viewable on Inkbunny on one monitor, I also start watching TUFF Puppy on the other one because, hey, random Youtubes. The episode in question was, I think "Doom Mates" or something like that. It's a fairly entertaining if simplistic show, but I realize about halfway through that... hey, Dudley has just been grabbing the hell out of his partner Kitty Katswell's ass for about five minutes now, under some pretense of over-the-shoulder ladyslinging that's supposed to protect her somehow. Of course, that's just me looking far too much into things, because cartoonists are clean and pure.
I hop onto Rule34 to see what's there, and entertainingly enough, there's plenty of good stuff. Things by ameteurs, I think what had to be a paysite, and somewhat disturbingly some pictures that seemed really spot-on for the style. No conspiracy there, it's an easy style to mimic, I'm sure. So suuuuure.
That gets me thinking, though, to my recent endeavors in style copying and the fun challenge therein... and I actually begin to miss DA. Not because it was fun to use or intuitive or anything- but rather, because I'd get the most off-the-wall requests for sexy things involving characters from shows I'd never flippin' heard of; either because it was foreign or really old or really new or a really old foreign cartoon they'd made new again. It was neat to have that kind of variety in designs to look at. Not that Sonic isn't cool and all (secret throbbing fanboner for Nicole's holo-hottie projection, anyone?), but it was just nice to have other things to try to work out and figure out what made that style or character design work... and not have to look for it myself. Sometimes I really dig what cartoonists come up with and want to see how I can destroy what they're doing with terrible intentions! Distressingly, not that terribly many original characters scratch that itch. Well, there are plenty, but the ratio of interesting to not is pretty stark.
Which brings me to my next point. I've always asserted that I take suggestions, not requests. Because when it comes down to it, I like money and stuff, and won't pretend I don't get fringe benefits from my semi-popularity, but really I wouldn't be here if not for the creative fun. Fun scenarios, fun character designs, fun ideas. The style studies, figuring out what makes cartoons attractive and creative storytelling are the only things that I can really point to that make me an artist rather than a creeper with a sketchpad.
But my god, I've received some of the most mundane, nonsensical, lame ideas I could never imagine. What scenario would you like? Oh, you don't have one. Oh, you do? Oh, but it's so simplistic it wouldn't have made it past the cutting room floor of a 2 Stupid Dogs episode. Or maybe it's super detailed, but reads either like a rundown of a Yu-Gi-Oh plot, or the script to the Very First Porno Ever Concieved. Then sometimes I'll ask about a character I saw in a gallery, whom I'm intrigued in... and almost every time I'm completely sorry I did. Okay, dude. I know you're like... 13. And I'm sure this is super cool to you. But here's a checklists of things that you should ask yourself before getting your hopes up that I'm gonna be anything but disenchanted by the time I'm done reading your description:
1. Is my character a recolor of some other show's protagonist?
2. Do the distinguishing features of my character involve clothing, weapons, endowments and/or superpowers and little else?
3. Am I unable to name one human-like flaw my character has?
4. If it's multiple characters, do they comport themselves like your average Anime RomCom cast for no ostensible reason despite being mercenaries/space prostitutes/fish tank cleaners?
Let's say it's your character's girlfriend! Ask this:
1. Does she act like any actual female I've ever met might possibly?
2. Can I describe her without mentioning my character?
3. Is she a person?
4. Does she seem to exist for the sole reason of making my character look better or have a romantic/sexual interest?
5. Let's say this artist is blind and has no sense of touch. Can I describe her to him at all?
I mean... I get it. You're not an artist, you're not a writer, you've just got some cardboard cut-outs for a little wish fulfillment and you're gonna call it a day. That's fine. But it's also easy- so easy that everyone under the sun does it, usually around the age of 14.
Which brings up the really great part: telling someone they're not a bad person, but their creativity unfortunately sucks. I don't think I remember one time that this ever went well. At best, extreme disappointment and insecurity. At worst, absolute screaming temper tantrum and accusations of elitism. What do you even do? Lie, and it becomes a big string of expectation and disappointment. Be blunt and you can expect the previous result. Draw it, and end up so disillusioned by the entire thing that you just rush through it to get to something actually fun. At least with a commission, I can liven up any dull moments with a Henry Weinhart's good old-fashioned root beer.
So I guess the moral of the story is, I'm picky and my muse requires a lot of foreplay. Sorry for any soul-crushing inconvenience.
EDIT EDIT EDIT: Alternatively, just because I didn't draw your suggestion doesn't mean I thought it sucked. Kay? Don't go all insecure on me!
So as I color in a commission that'll only be viewable on Inkbunny on one monitor, I also start watching TUFF Puppy on the other one because, hey, random Youtubes. The episode in question was, I think "Doom Mates" or something like that. It's a fairly entertaining if simplistic show, but I realize about halfway through that... hey, Dudley has just been grabbing the hell out of his partner Kitty Katswell's ass for about five minutes now, under some pretense of over-the-shoulder ladyslinging that's supposed to protect her somehow. Of course, that's just me looking far too much into things, because cartoonists are clean and pure.
I hop onto Rule34 to see what's there, and entertainingly enough, there's plenty of good stuff. Things by ameteurs, I think what had to be a paysite, and somewhat disturbingly some pictures that seemed really spot-on for the style. No conspiracy there, it's an easy style to mimic, I'm sure. So suuuuure.
That gets me thinking, though, to my recent endeavors in style copying and the fun challenge therein... and I actually begin to miss DA. Not because it was fun to use or intuitive or anything- but rather, because I'd get the most off-the-wall requests for sexy things involving characters from shows I'd never flippin' heard of; either because it was foreign or really old or really new or a really old foreign cartoon they'd made new again. It was neat to have that kind of variety in designs to look at. Not that Sonic isn't cool and all (secret throbbing fanboner for Nicole's holo-hottie projection, anyone?), but it was just nice to have other things to try to work out and figure out what made that style or character design work... and not have to look for it myself. Sometimes I really dig what cartoonists come up with and want to see how I can destroy what they're doing with terrible intentions! Distressingly, not that terribly many original characters scratch that itch. Well, there are plenty, but the ratio of interesting to not is pretty stark.
Which brings me to my next point. I've always asserted that I take suggestions, not requests. Because when it comes down to it, I like money and stuff, and won't pretend I don't get fringe benefits from my semi-popularity, but really I wouldn't be here if not for the creative fun. Fun scenarios, fun character designs, fun ideas. The style studies, figuring out what makes cartoons attractive and creative storytelling are the only things that I can really point to that make me an artist rather than a creeper with a sketchpad.
But my god, I've received some of the most mundane, nonsensical, lame ideas I could never imagine. What scenario would you like? Oh, you don't have one. Oh, you do? Oh, but it's so simplistic it wouldn't have made it past the cutting room floor of a 2 Stupid Dogs episode. Or maybe it's super detailed, but reads either like a rundown of a Yu-Gi-Oh plot, or the script to the Very First Porno Ever Concieved. Then sometimes I'll ask about a character I saw in a gallery, whom I'm intrigued in... and almost every time I'm completely sorry I did. Okay, dude. I know you're like... 13. And I'm sure this is super cool to you. But here's a checklists of things that you should ask yourself before getting your hopes up that I'm gonna be anything but disenchanted by the time I'm done reading your description:
1. Is my character a recolor of some other show's protagonist?
2. Do the distinguishing features of my character involve clothing, weapons, endowments and/or superpowers and little else?
3. Am I unable to name one human-like flaw my character has?
4. If it's multiple characters, do they comport themselves like your average Anime RomCom cast for no ostensible reason despite being mercenaries/space prostitutes/fish tank cleaners?
Let's say it's your character's girlfriend! Ask this:
1. Does she act like any actual female I've ever met might possibly?
2. Can I describe her without mentioning my character?
3. Is she a person?
4. Does she seem to exist for the sole reason of making my character look better or have a romantic/sexual interest?
5. Let's say this artist is blind and has no sense of touch. Can I describe her to him at all?
I mean... I get it. You're not an artist, you're not a writer, you've just got some cardboard cut-outs for a little wish fulfillment and you're gonna call it a day. That's fine. But it's also easy- so easy that everyone under the sun does it, usually around the age of 14.
Which brings up the really great part: telling someone they're not a bad person, but their creativity unfortunately sucks. I don't think I remember one time that this ever went well. At best, extreme disappointment and insecurity. At worst, absolute screaming temper tantrum and accusations of elitism. What do you even do? Lie, and it becomes a big string of expectation and disappointment. Be blunt and you can expect the previous result. Draw it, and end up so disillusioned by the entire thing that you just rush through it to get to something actually fun. At least with a commission, I can liven up any dull moments with a Henry Weinhart's good old-fashioned root beer.
So I guess the moral of the story is, I'm picky and my muse requires a lot of foreplay. Sorry for any soul-crushing inconvenience.
EDIT EDIT EDIT: Alternatively, just because I didn't draw your suggestion doesn't mean I thought it sucked. Kay? Don't go all insecure on me!
Rarely do I read journals but this one I enjoyed reading. Sounds strange, but I did.
Know how you feel.
My mouse double clicked the post button on accident! :<
perhaps you can delete the duplicate?
That's why I'm so ambivalent about making original characters. I have extremely high standards for a kind of character I'd create, and I'm trying to still wrap my skull around the idea of making them furry. I also try to stray away from Mary Sue-ish traits. No doomed hometowns, no tragic pasts, nothing horribly cliched like that.
You know, I've found that you can dodge Mary Sues not by trying to avoid every concept that makes one, but by picking those concepts out, then subverting them by introducing some hilarious flaw.
This guy is handsome and smart!
But he has chronic gas problems.
Everybody in the world really loves her!
But she absolutely detests them and will do anything to get away from them.
He's the best computer hacker in the world!
But he's also the most tremendous prick and everyone hates him.
It always makes for good times. Even just having a flaw to overcome leaps you nicely past that.
my main character is me with tails and fur and a bit more freely sexual attitude since he cant get vds and lube and patience isnt needed in drawings
But no one will ever pay him! EVER! WHAT THE HELL!?
A hacker with dyslexia XD now that'd be amusing.
I wasn't trying to be insulting or anything of course, it was just an example.
So is an artist's integrity.
Be true to your work; the only opinions which are formed from actual thought are the ones that can sympathize in some fashion or another.
Besides, how are those 14 year-olds ever going to learn about real creativity if no one tells them when they need to advance?
My gods. The quality of that image is circa 3-4th grade for me. It's really saddening that people give praise to those who have little talent or never improve while better artists are ignored. I crave attention too, dammit!
The image in question - http://jacobyel.deviantart.com/art/.....sant-213924934
My version circa last October- http://timosprey.deviantart.com/art.....sant-181446375
It's almost like he used my design in a sense.
And in a related note, I have two girls I would love to see in your style. I think I mentioned one before, but not the second. Don't worry. I'll think of the details if you agree to take it into your suggestion list.
I'll just say so much: He's got marihuana leaves for wings <.<
Say. Do you have spots open for commissions?
I like 2 stupid dogs. That pie episode has me in tears every time. They just wanted some pie!
And I still love their little red riding hood.
Fortunately, my characters turn out fine on that checklist. XD
I sometimes consider offering a character designing service, but I half wonder if it'd just come off as assholish, heh... and anyway I don't ever seem to have enough stuff up to properly show Marl's character so, yeah...
That said, if you like obscure cartoons I would suggest the Dreamstone if you can find it. I loved that as a kid. Basically about a guy working for a wizard who makes dreams for people. Usually starring a guy and girl who get involved in the ongoing feud between the kind elderly wizard and the cruel, has killed a lot of people on the series actually villain who was basically booted out of dream making for reasons I forget and took up making nightmares and what have you. Has a fantastic voice for a villain...
Oh hey, found it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gseda0NpAF8
heh... and you see the villain pretty early in too :)
In the end sometimes its better to have someone not like you for a few days than to do something you know you'll hate in the end.
And I do try to make my characters distinguishable mostly by their personality traits, I think I have varying success sometimes, and they do ultimately have simple designs, but I like to think I'm at least passable in that regard...
And with all that said, I didn't know you take suggestions... and I'm generally a little reluctant to offer any anyway, preffering commissions and working out with the artist scenarios that'd suit the charactrers, so I'm glad this doesn't seem to be aimed at me.
Draw every character as though they have a soul.
Do that and their motivations, personalities, and expressions will fall into place if you pay attention to what you're doing.
As far as the hurt feelings and moment of broken delusions thing goes, telling the truth isn't being mean. You aren't insulting them, just telling them that they are being massively too overenthusiastic and not thinking things through with their head screwed on properly. A little bit of thought is all that separates a bad idea from being a springboard to something interesting.
Very valid points, and thanks for making them in your usual urbane way. Man, actually making you consider DA again; that's almost worrisome!
But let me tell ya, its hard coming up with fully original characters; especially since practically everything's already been done before. And with the internet so prominent in virtually everyone's lives, it's become even more difficult to come up with new and interesting characters for stories and whatnot. What with the fact that I can guarantee that virtually whatever you can come up, at least five other people on the web thought of it first.
I myself don't hold any grand illusions of originality for my own characters, what with most of their distinguishing features being some kind of endowment; like huge breasts for my Bonnie and massive hips for my Camille. But I at least try to make up for it with fairly interesting backstories and several human flaws for my characters.
...wait, would it be considered a human flaw if they're actually a furry character. ^_^;
Well anyway, I guess my point is that it really is hard to come up with something new and exciting, when everything's practically been done already; and in some cases, done a lot better.
Now, that's not going to stop me from trying to make my own characters unique or anything; but it is going to be a lot harder to do, what with there being so much bosomy competition and all.* =3
* - is speaking of your massively boobilicious Alex and Sunni. X3
I knew this day would come, and I am ready! *Cracks knuckles and hangs up his 'Gone Fishin' sign.*
It's been too long, far too long since I've had fishsticks..
The problem with the Mary/Gary Sue attitude is that, ultimately, it's way too serious. Even most slice of life comics, furry or manga, or just SO REAL that we tend to forget that quite often, while around people we know, we try to be funny like 90% of the time. I'd rather watch characters in a bad comedy than characters in bad, overwrought anime/drama.
Heh Every character needs a flaw. My character is a letch but also wants to be in small groups or alone sometimes. XD
A letch with antisocial traits. He can be TOO nice to people and he can be lazy and has trouble with remembering names
log term. XD
Of course, this was referring more to plots for stories rather than actual all-encompassing 'ideas'.
And also in regards to you only drawing when inspired and being picky, I hope you aren't having any problems on your part of our trade, if you're having any problems with it please tell me (even if you want to call it off), I know how it sucks when I have a pendent drawing and I just can't get myself to do it, specially when it's with a friend of mine!
I do wonder about the quality of what I'm doing sometimes in terms of creativity, in fact its almost a constant nag in my head, but I always come back to the point that by and large people aren't all that extraordinary. Its actually boggles my mind that someone could pile so much on one character.
I'll stop there, don't want to rant and look like an idiot. -.-;;
HE'S A MECH PILOTING SKY TEXTURED FOX IN A HOODIE WITH A TRANSFORMING SPACE LANCE. WITH GOOFY EARS.
I think this is the very reason I get... iffy when I come across a character that was made to be inserted into a particular, pre-existing world. Sonic fan-characters for instance. It seems like, for the most part, as soon as someone makes a Hedgehog, the concept just goes entirely downhill, and/or is entirely unbelievable in every way. Like, maybe they have no flaws. Maybe they do have flaws, but the list of them is so staggeringly huge one might wonder how this character is still even alive. Their personality may be flat, or an entire rip-off of Sonic himself. It's either a ton of those things wrong, or it's just drawn really poorly. It's hard to win with canon-based fan-characters. You may realize that "canon-based fan-character" is something of an oxymoron. That was intentional.
But this is why I love making characters, and I love talking about them with you or others who ask questions. It's always nice to get questions about your characters, because sometimes the questions are so far out there that they really make you think of the character, and how they may humanly respond to particular situations. The question can be as simple as "what makes them cry," to as complicated as, "your character has stepped into a time-machine and has been transported back to the pre-historic age. Large, life-threatening dinosaurs and bugs the size of dogs run rampant. What do they do?"
There are tons, tons, tooooons of things to take into consideration with a character... not just what they like or dislike. Their priorities, dreams, failures, flaws, or things that just don't quite fit, but they do/are there anyway.
On the flip-side, it's one thing to be whacky, over-the-top, and just plain different, but it's another to do so in a clever manner. I want to do that sometime. I should invest in more satire.
On a more specific note, item two of list one: I'm trying to think what other visual aspects of a character are left after all those exclusions. Crazy anime hair? Exotic fur/body markings? Or did you mean certain more subtle qualities like, body language or... having a physique that isn't copy-pasted from every other character in their series?
And as for the entirety of the "girlfriend's qualities" list... ... Amy effin' Rose forever fails this test. :D
That's the point, though, it's not a visual characteristic- and the fact that nobody even considers anything but is what really grates on me.
But of course, that only applies to those media. Characters who exist only in silent media, such as comics or artwork, don't have much other than their visual design to distinguish them. Personality might be something, but I think the only way you can distinguish a character by its personality is if that personality is simplistic and one-dimensional. A truly great character won't be -distinguished- by their personality because it will be subtle, complex, and require a lot more to understand.
What other features were you thinking of, that aren't visual, including the character's style (which can speak volumes about them, if enough thought was put into their clothing choices) or the tools they use (again something that can be more deep than "I gave him an AK47 because AKs are awesome!" Tools, including weapons, are something a person/character can put a lot of heart into using) or any supernatural abilities they may have?
<.< Oh god, Nori in your brain... or being in Nori's brain. Crazy hijinx either way.
Anyway, I definitely know what you mean. I sorta kinda do some writing and have done some RPing. It really stands out in that format when a character lacks personality.
Part of the reason I've only thrown you a sugjestion once is that I don't often think about it- the other part is that I know you want the good (interesting) stuff- and I couldn't sugjest something I felt was lacking regardless. Might have to sit down and think of a few fo ya.
A good character needs balance, in the relation of their parts to each other as well as in their relations to other characters. Simply giving them them some compensating traits makes for a good reveal and surprise in the story but going from that their defining positive traits are the olny things they are really good at and then using the resulting shortcomings as achracter flaws works also very well, with then a bit of unexpected compensating or unrelated traits to keep them spicy. Dynamic characters are defined by their potential, the ends of which they still have to reach and by flaws that require them to grow, thereby going static, to overcome them. Static caracters are defined by that they have reached their full potential but at the price of missing development in other areas and they would need to change, thereby going dynamic, to overcome that. All things considered the Yin Yang is a good picture for it.
Defining a character by their clothes or their weapons or their powers or their endowment is a good start but for a rounded character it would need to go deeper from there. Why are they that way (up to and including their clothing style), how does it affect them and then a spricle of the unexpected to keep them interesting.
For example: The hero is a tech wizard to the point of being a progeny and is physically strong and fit - but he is also incredibly naive when it comes to dangers and walks with an amount of overconfidence into situations that could get him killed and is idealistic to a fault, which makes him easy to trap and makes it easy to send him into a rage in which he cares even less about danger and is even easier to trap.
My persona / fursona characters tend have exaggerations of my stengths and exaggerations of my weaknesses.
What I'm trying to say Nori is that you're gifted for being able to put up with those kind of commissions. It's not easy to do, at least for me =3
1. Why did I make them?
2. What makes them unique and/or interesting to me over similar characters by others?
3. What're their goals?
4. What's an obstacle to their goals, be it characters, circumstance or even their own personality?
5. How do they act when people around, and how is it different from when they're alone?
- What kind of interactions they have with other persons?
- What is the contrast with them and other persons? Of which persons are they the "foils"?
- Are there things they do or way they feel withouth them noticing or being aware on their own?
Also, pay attention to characters and character interaction in other works, analyze them.
As you get a better understanding of other characters,
you'll be better equipped to do things with your owns.
And finally, practice.
Does it means we'll see more depth with the next pictures you'll post?
More seriously, it makes me wonder how good would my own characters would be. X D
Actually, wasn't Sturgeon law instead "10% of everything is awesome!" ? : )
make more art