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Discussion Journal 1 (Si'itian ship technology)
18 years ago
Your thoughts, opinions, knowledge, brags, complaints, critiques etc. on my concepts for si'itian shipcraft.
It is to note here that:
1) the verse is based on ours, keep it real
2) the si'itians are about 5000+ years ahead of us concerning shipcraft and technology. If you do bring in themes that are dicussed to be possible in the next 100 years, don't be surprized when I assume we're past that
3) keep it civil. I neither want drama of this nor fights between people. I take no responsibility for quarels that come to stand between people. I also ask you to keep discussions about personal opinion (be it on or off theme) OFF this journal and, should the theme be relevant, post the result of said discussion here!
It is to note here that:
1) the verse is based on ours, keep it real
2) the si'itians are about 5000+ years ahead of us concerning shipcraft and technology. If you do bring in themes that are dicussed to be possible in the next 100 years, don't be surprized when I assume we're past that
3) keep it civil. I neither want drama of this nor fights between people. I take no responsibility for quarels that come to stand between people. I also ask you to keep discussions about personal opinion (be it on or off theme) OFF this journal and, should the theme be relevant, post the result of said discussion here!
Lovingly,
Mika Kyubi
Kitsune-at-Large
1. sensory equipment:
I'll have to admit I haven't gone far enough to determine these. I can tell you that the ship is mostly equiped with the 360³° view-field that's common in si'itian shipcraft, but there's little more on my information paltter atm ;3
2. weapons:
What I meant by directed energy was mostly the idea of rerouting the shield and basically leashing out in a direction determined by the nanites in the alloy (tear me apart but I'll just assume it works here ;3). Imagine something similar to lightining bolts striking earth (or the sky rather since it's going upwards, but who cares X3), just that they are controlled to shoot in a direction.
Concentrated energy globes. Well...I can't answer you what cohesive plasma is, it might be what I'm thinking of. Basically it's an extreme shortrange weapon (in shipterms anyway). The energy is bundled and forced into a containment field which 'fired' from the turret, effectively giving the energy a momentum in a certain direction before falling apart into vacuum (no fuel, no reaction). Don't ask me the type of energy X3
DE = Directed Energy. Dark Energy hasn't been defined with me yet either, though it might get some sinister use in future projects of mine ;3
200mm Plasma-charges. The basic idea isn't to burn or ionize gases to become plasma and only melt the target area on impact, but rather to have a sphere-reactor. The plasma is only there to melt a path into the target after which the reactor-shell is supposed to enter and explode. It's the same principle used in si'itian infantry weaponry, just larger. Imagine an explosive round with a sophisticated drill >_>
3. Propulsion:
I'll assume you're correct about the plasma-rocket system, I neither know facts nor details. What I'm trying to avoid though is any-kind of fuel-based propulsion system. If I remember right, to create plasma you need a high amount of extremely rare gases to be ionized after which they can be compressed and used as plasma fuel.
My idea was more by the concept of only having to use up energy produced by the core (much like for instance the idea of the warp-core in star-trek. I have no idea how it's supposed to work, but apparently it serves as an infinite fuel resource). My concept of the dark-matter core is physically impossible, but I#ll explain it to you anyway if you want to (no, really, it's just impossible with the laws of physics, but who cares ;3)
Trans-light...is always vague. According to Einsteins ideas there is no way to travel faster than EM-radiation particles unless you can warp/fold space around. If I understood your collection correct though I think we're probably thinking along the same lines...more or less (it's all so vague)
4. Armoring:
Uh, it might be because of myself not being a native speaker and having only limited access and understanding of scientific terms that I do not fully understand what you proposed/assumed the armoring to be, but I think it's probably what I'm thinking it is...possibly.
I'll admit the fact that the nanites should be capable of distorting matter is rather bendy and wobbly, but we'll just assume it works when saying it's not just one nanit per square meter ;3
Define LIDAR? ^^;
5. Craft capacity:
So we'll just agree on a no ;3
6. Cloaking
Yeah, the ship would probably flare up as a heat beacon. Cloaking is limited however, any system, no matter how advanced, needs a cool down time.
Yes, placing yourself in plain view between planet and observer is rather stupid though if you ask me ;3
Yeah, I've considdered the problem of the beam-rider (as you call it) giving away the ship if viewed from the right angle. You'll also have to take into account that the gravitonic field would technically deflect any sort of information that could reach the ship (light = EM wave, anything below that will walso be deflected). So technically it's they don't see you and you don't see shit...but I guess we can come in with FM here again and, I'll have to say here, use your imagination ;3
To answer your last two questions
1. I can actually only give you vague measurements, since I've never made a propper blueprint of the ship and measured relative sizes.
L: 400m
B: 80m (including coils)
D: 60m (including stabilizer fin)
2. Define naming convention ;3
Yours truly, iPoke
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidar
regarding your plasma charges with \"an explosive round with a sophisticated drill\":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_e.....sive_anti-tank
not _exactly_ what you are describing, but pretty similar ^^
some fundamental concepts just work well regardless of which time you place them in :P
The difference is that a HEAT shell utilizes the explosion to punch through the armor in the first place but doesn't detonate once inside.
The plasma charges are supposed to melt through the armor prior to explosion, so it's technically the reverse way of going about it...
On a side note, recent developments in ceramic-armorplating have proven to be highly effective against HEAT rounds ;3 it's only a matter of time until even the most simple concepts are surpassed
Besides, the metal "spike" that is forced inside the tank explosively expands again once the pressure of the shaped charge is gone, so it does explode - just not with a separate warhead.
I cannot agree with you on the last statement though, because I do think we have to distinguish there between concept and implementation - while an implementation may be surpassed quite quickly, concepts are seldomly.
Sorry if any of this was discussed previously.
1) I was about to say that a light drive wouldn't work, but appearantly it does (I've heard both versions so far, both that light pressure exists, and that the experimental prove was disproved because of imperfect vacuum within the evacuated glas dome) Shame on me for misinformation -.-
2) armament: 40 cannons sounded quite a lot to begin with, but considering the size, it's not all that much.
My objection is another one: if the skin/armor is of such advanced technology and can shape EM waves and other energy fields at will, why not use the skin itself to direct different kinds of energy (produced internally, for example or directly on the skin) at an enemy with which destructive power, focal point etc. could be freely adjusted.
This could also double as an active sensor array if the need arises. (Stross forgive me for that stolen idea XD)
3) cloaking: first of all, I think the actual _invisibility_ would be pretty neglectible,
considering combat would likely involve light-seconds of distance.
Why look for a nanometer-sized needle pin if the energy required to keep up the invisibility would scream >OVER HERE<? ^^
it would be much more important to be able to dampen internal signatures and run on minimum emission.
also, if the cloaking works under gravitic drive, which cannot be dampened by the skin/armor, at this tech level it would likely not take long for an opponent to figure this out and have sophisticated software or AI check for those distortions on every sensor sweep. at this point it wouldn't matter much what kind of maneauvers the captain pulls off - it would probably give him them away as an artificial object all the quicker.
makes more sense to me to combine this exclusively with the sub-light drive with it's highly directional nature.
phew, I think that's the longest post I've ever posted here on FA ^^
Again, sorry if any of this was previously discussed between you and mikayubi
1. Yeah, there's both versions...light does apparently have pressure, even if minimal, but in the end, it's a law I THINK we can slightly bend to fit in here ;3
2. 40 cannons is enough for a scouting vehicle, considdering they can move freely on the ships surface and that it's lightly armed.
And the concept of directing the shields energy as a weapon against targets was precicely what I meant, I guess I might not have brought it over right or something.
3.Your points are partially valid, but ship to ship combat doesn't run over enormous distances with me...it's more like a pushed up version of WW II dog-fights with starships representing something like impossibly armored zeplins ;3
Also, the ship isn't really made for combat. If you're detected it's pack your legs and run!
For the last point, I'll agree to both that the energy levels required for the system and the patterns for both the system and the armoring could be detected, but I guess we can safely agree that a) by FM it isn't and b) even if it was, it's the point of espionage and science to be counter-parts
And yeah, cloaking yourself in magnet space doesn't make much sense X3
That shall have been all...I know some of the theories and technologies are highly doubtable, but if you can explain to me how Klingons cloak their ships or what the point of a PHOTON-torpedo is, be my guest ;3
Thank you for your opinion and critique though ^^ I do cherish and treasure it :3
Love ya!
Yours,
Mika
2. "40 cannons is enough for a scouting vehicle" is a cute statement XD I'd say it's definately over-armed.
if you look at contemporary naval craft (which I think are a good comparison), the guns can only take up so much space because you need all the space for more important things (especially on a scout craft)
3. Dogfight doesn't make much sense though... I mean, "we have the technology to blow up a planet...or a sun from beyond the solar system, but let's get close up and personal, just cause!" ^.~
in my oppinion, "distances" and timescales would shrink dramatically at this technology level... so basically 1 lightsecond IS dogfight XD
And yeah yeah, I know I know, it's no fun shooting at pin points ^^
1) Photons excited or pushed to a higher energy state will instead manifest with a shorted frequency, which is, incidentally, carrying higher energy. They may also manifest with a higher amplitude to their waves, this pointing to a higher energy as well.
3) Dogfighting may not make too much real-life sense, but it does something desperately needed for any but the seriously "hard" sci-fi end of things: it looks visually impressive. Think of how boring any sci-fi movie would be if the ships never saw each other and outside of laying out the general strategy of the combat all fights were left to the shipboard computer or AI (literally the ONLY thing capable of tracking, analyzing, and neutralizing high-relativistic threats of this nature). Honestly, pretty boring.
In a semi-realistic space combat situation, the person who strikes first will likely be the winner. The best captains of ANY spacecraft will have an assassin's mentality: sneak up silently and stab them in the back with a one-shot killing blow.
Number 2 is a bit hard to disagree with, mostly because of the fluid nature of the weapons (not fixed/hard mounts but instead generated moment-to-moment from the local nanoswarm.
Yours,
Mika
2)it's hard to argument why you need the number of 40 guns if you can generate them on the fly anyway O.o
3) hehe, I wholeheartedly agree, it would be rather boring, and yes a good measure of romanticism is good there, afterall, modern warfare has little to do with swords and shields as well and it's still more fun :P
(But it can be overdone too: I'm reminded of the halo books... I mean, COURSE the masterchief can jump through space across half a light second and land feet-first on the enemy cruiser... uhhuh...)
2) Generate them? They're solid units that move under or inside the skin, they're not produced by the ship in infinite amounts
3) I'll agree, half a light second is a little too much (like, half the distance to the moon?) but it was fun to read anyway X3
3) Hehe, on the danger of offending die-hard halo fans, but I was expecting more of the book. For a super-intelligent super soldier... he was exceptionally mundane *g* I mean, a little less emphrasis on just hoooow super über he was would have gone a long way of making him more believable.
That idea came to me a few years ago, what would happen if you were to, through some technology, accelerate light beyond the speed of light?
I've never heard of that concept before, so there'd be a whole playground there, in terms of which kind of exotic properties the new beam of "hard light" would obtain.
Of course, einstein would cringe, but the _idea_ is interesting.
It's also not as if this was soooooooo much more far-fetched than a warp-drive *g*
1) put my thoughts on it with Greex below
2) Ergh, negative. The weapons aren't generated by the nanoswarm but rather let through. Imagine something like submarines under water that surface to deploy whatever land-bound weapons they have.
3) I discussed this with Greex yesterday evening. Basically having dog-fights and close-quarter combat even between ships is rather inevitable if you think about it. If you attack a target from afar then your weakspot will usually be CC, so your opponent will attempt to come as close to you as possible with many small targets so any shot given is technically a wasted potential.
You'll need something to defend yourself up close and another fighter is still more effective against a fighter than a fixed turret...
Think about it. If you attacked a rifle armed soldier in CC with a sword today (like Greexs example) you'd win so long as the conditions are right (e.g. some cover or the surprize moment). A moden soldier is trained to use his rifle at a distance but has no idea of sword fighting or means to defend himself against a swordsman...it's a crude example, and not entirely the same thing, but I guess you see what I'm trying to tell you...
Love,
Mika
Project Rho's Atomic Rocket page. Contains a good bit of hard science that you can use as a basis for whatever you end up doing.
I love their reasonings, like why a fighter would be a rather inappropriate concept when a missile could deliver more destruction at higher speeds and lower costs; and why these concepts are conceived.
Take a look, it's really good.
Yeah, I'll admit it goes a little far here but it's still interesting if you ask me
I'm glad I left off any of the quantum physics discussions, or else we might have been supping on boiled brain soup! ^_^ That stuff makes ME reel around in pain, and I adore it!
Sorry, though, if it's confusing. It started getting REALLY involved on the Stellar Flare page.
Love,
Mika
1. sensory equipment:
LIDAR sounds like a good plan and the 360 field of view is cool. Have the main crew that controls the ship (weapons, propulsion, shields, etc.) able to communicate faster with neural sensory helmets if it's not "too far out there". Should allow the commander to get everyone working together more co-operatively and be able to take control of the ship when in dire need. Detecting another ship's status (shields, damage, etc.) could probably be "pinging" it with particles and/or hacking the system remotely.
2. weapons:
Keep the shield energy lash.What I meant by directed energy was mostly the idea of rerouting the shield and basically leashing out in a direction determined by the nanites in the alloy (tear me apart but I'll just assume it works here ;3). Imagine something similar to lightining bolts striking earth (or the sky rather since it's going upwards, but who cares X3), just that they are controlled to shoot in a direction.
Concentrated energy globes. Could be used if close enough to an energy bearing solar body. Just accumulate the stuff from a star and unleash it.
DE = Directed Energy. Dark Energy hasn't been defined with me yet either, though it might get some sinister use in future projects of mine ;3 (<-- I'll think on that for later.)
200mm Plasma-charges. <-- Sweet.
Put some solar lasers in there for an infinite ammo supply. Of course only functioning when in range of a star and possibly deflectable by certain armors and probably weaker unless they charge the shot for a while.
Heavy slugs should probably be a main weapon for them. ~Might only be able to plant a few on smaller ships.~
3. Propulsion:
In space there's always still some bits of matter, so why not accumulate it from nebulae and things and split them for power. . . if feasable. I don't know how much matter it takes to power the whole process etc. If they find a way to do it conservatively it might be nice.
Trans-light/sub-light, whatever you might think up. Again I'd have to think it through a while.
4. Armoring:
Reflective armor, nice for solar lasers, not so nice for slugs. Need some reactive armor for slugs that can slightly bend or warp to absorb the impact or have a hard outer layer with a gel-like sublayer.
5. Craft capacity:
We'll stick with the no.
6. Cloaking
I like the thoughts on cloaking systems.
Neural implants are pretty common in the guard, mainly because you need them to interact with the different kinds of powered armor, equipment and whatnot. I'm surprised however that no one else brought up the subject yet, good thinking :3
2. CE Globes, same argument that I'll bring up for your suggestion about solar lasers. The Dark-matter core provides infinite energy, there's no need for external energy consumption to provide weapons-power.
3. You're suggesting what's called a Ram-jet...certainly a possibility to an extent, though the aim of propulsion was to stay without combustion resources. It might be an optional drive though, sort of a back up
4. Different weapons have different effects, you can't really make it perfect, you can just make something that's a middle-ground
5. Yeah :b
6. Thanks ^^ even though they're a bit with the impossibility side
2. Infinite's no fun. =P At least not without limit. It's your stuff, I can go with that.
3. Sounds good.
4. Ion painter for the energy lash for guidance? Or just kind of a whip-like thing?
5. =)
6. Not sure how Star Trek cloaking works but might look into that for ideas.
I think it'd be wise to keep it as an additional method, if others fail (maybe that small craft you're encountering is using a fusion torch and no gravitics at all, then you couldn't detect it using it's gravitic distortion, you couldn't detect it's drive output but that simple lidar might give you a good ping on it)
Thinking of it, poke was right. When you hide yourself perfectly, you impede your own sensors by the same amount. I think the best approach is obscuring your signature so you appear as natural/casual as possible.
2. 200mm Plasma-charges. Boooring :P If we apply bigger-better-faster-stronger mentality here (don't get me wrong, I think tim tailor was perfectly right at times XD), today's ship artillery shells are already waaaay more flashy XD what are they? 800mm? I can't remember exactly.
Yeaaah, no plasma, but plasma is overrated anyway :P
I wanna throw soda cans at 85% the speed of light! that's bang for buck XD
(sorry this derailed somewhere ^^" nevermind, some part of my brain is still asleep and caffein won't wake it up)
BHR doesn't come out of the black hole and isn't unaffected by it either, rather it is 'generated' on the verge of the event horizon.
Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_radiation for details ^^
Of the underlying maths (which I quite firmly believe are the only real way of understanding it) I understand... let's see... exactly 0 ^^
Hehehe, I'm far from alone with that problem though XD
A pair of 'entangled' quanta are moved apart at sublight speed and transported to some location,
if one of the pairs was 'flipped' to indicate a change in a bit, the other quantum of the pair also flipped, thus allowing information transmission at quasi-FTL speeds (quasi because they have to be transported apart at sub-light speed first, this way they do not violate causality)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_teleportation
I havn't read anything from the author you mentioned, but it sounds like we both mean the same effect.
You should read Ender's Game and stuff. Pretty good series. First book might be the best action-wise but I enjoyed the 3(?) of them.
And if you name a weapon, please explain it. I hate it, when I read names like energy cannon, and people don't explain where the energy comes from and what kind of energy it is.
this is where it all began and most of the initial discussion was at
Also art idea for you, draw a full Si'itian fleet... just once, it might give a good perspective on their ships and the designs.
Visual cloaking is absolutely useless. When you're dealing with space-faring craft and the distances they travel, visual cloaking is silly. There's no point to it. You honestly expect to be able to visually spot a ship from 100,000 km away when the ship is only a few hundred meters long?
Once that aspect is suitably ignored, you should really look at "cloaking" as just emissions and signature reduction. Things you produce, like heat and exhaust gasses and EM fields and such, are emissions. These things can be picked up by passive sensor arrays that only listen. Your signature is what active sensor arrays try to pick up. An active array sends out some sort of signal and listens for returns. LIDAR is an active system; it sends out a beam of light and looks for the reflection. To reduce your signature against LIDAR you would develop a paint/hull coating that reflects as little light as possible. RADAR? A hull coating that absorbs radar waves or a hull shape that redirects the waves away from the sender.
A stealthed ship would only use passive sensor arrays. Hammering an enemy ship with active signals is not a good way to stay hidden. Sitting with all your emissions reduced as much as possible in a ship designed to have a low signature vs the enemy's sensors lets you follow him around and listen to him with your passive sensors as much as you want.
As an example, imagine two submarines. Submarine A is very stealthy, and Submarine B is not. Sub A can hear Sub B coming with its passive sonar arrays, and just stays near Sub B, using its passive arrays to follow it around by listening to the noise it makes (Sub B's emissions). Sub B knows that it's not very stealthy, and forgoes any attempt at stealth: they just hammer away with their active sonar, trying to find Sub A. Sub A, however, is very stealthy and absorbs the sonar waves instead of reflecting them back to Sub B (sub A has a low signature). Then Sub A fires a torpedo up Sub B's ass and there's explosions and doom and stuff. Both subs are 100% visible in the visible light spectrum, but in their environment the visual spectrum is pretty useless. They don't try to become invisible to the naked eye, they just try to become invisible to the sensors that will be used against them.
That's too simple a comparison. Consider two submarines, A does as you recommend, while B quietly launches a 'UAV' with a very powerful active sensor. Sub A then has the tricky choice of either firing on the UAV, which will give away it's position, or maneuvering, which will give away it's position, or hoping that B's UAV or crew will make some kind of escape.
In space of course, you have planets and things to hide behind. If the range is more than a few light-seconds, you can also 'hide' behind that. With absolutely hard science, you'll only be able to cloak (badly) in all directions for a short period of time. The only way to sealth well is to cool the side of the ship facing the enemy to background temperature, and dump all heat on the other side. Unfortunately that only works against one direction. If you face a fleet, or one ship plus UAVs, or there's something behind you that will reflect the dumped heat backtowards the enemy, you can't hide. Now imagine both ships doing this...
Of course iPoke's using a star drive, so his setting seems to be using merely crunchy, rather than diamond hard science. It's up to him how much of that killjoy stuff applies.
On the other paw, if he's tending a little more towards space opera ship-ship combat, he might want to think about cloaking hull features, rather than the ship. If incoming missiles can aim for specific parts of the ship, you do *NOT* want them to be able to see things like hatches, sensors, or other weak points on your hull.
;)