Opinions?
18 years ago
General
I've been talking to people a bit and I've been wondering something. This isn't a loaded question:
I've recently come across people who are of the opinion that making an established canon character homo- or bisexual alters their personality past the point of believability. As in, they would be a markedly different person if their sexuality was different. Which I suppose is a valid assumption if you look at pop culture and majority, but what I want to know is, how do you feel? Do you feel that changing a character's gender preference makes them different on a base level? How?
No flames, now. Don't be the douchébag. :|
I've recently come across people who are of the opinion that making an established canon character homo- or bisexual alters their personality past the point of believability. As in, they would be a markedly different person if their sexuality was different. Which I suppose is a valid assumption if you look at pop culture and majority, but what I want to know is, how do you feel? Do you feel that changing a character's gender preference makes them different on a base level? How?
No flames, now. Don't be the douchébag. :|
FA+

Of course the sexuality changes that I usually see can be just downright ridiculous and just to force two characters to like each other or act in a way they want as if the character was a puppet to be manipulated at one's whims, even falling irrationally in love with someone that they are originally supposed to despise (if I were to despise someone I don't think that would change even if someone could tinker around with my like of the sexes).
So in a personal non established case, yes they will be different... but not the way some fandoms will potray them, its all about levels not switches
I think it depends on what way you're doing it. If it's just for some yiffy fanart (like Sonic/Shadow tongue-kissing) then go for it. For work that you want to be taken seriously however, I think there is definitely a line. Like, it would take one _hell_ of an author to get me to accept a Mal/Jane pairing in a Firefly story. Of course, it also depends on the character, too. Some people are easier to imagine with a fluid sexuality. Dale, for instance. ;)
Sexuality doesnt make a character but it is an imprtant part of who they are so it does change them some.say Sonic being gay would ceetainly ruin any Sally or amy love stories .
Though I do have one out,theres mutliple universes as sci-fi concept. When theres hundreds or millions of versions of a character in the mutliverse then some of them would be of every orientation and life circumstances you could imagine.like maybe out of 1 million Tails,one of them ends up being a violent rapist or something,another has some change in his mind and is self castrated and desires no sex what so ever, etc..
This doesn't mean we should stop or something crazy like that.
In short, You don't just change one character, you alter how that person acts towards the other characters, and how they act and react to that character.
Not really trying to mince stereotypes, I'm just saying. It's like I get the impression that folk think he's less of a man because he doesn't mind a little cock now and then.
What usually disturbs me about changing a character's sexual preference-or assigning them one if there isn't an obvious preference beforehand (especially in the case of characters who are children in canon)-is the idea that somehow, their new preference is the "true" one, that Draco Malfoy and Harry Potter are "clearly" lusting for each other, which is what provokes their fighting. Of course, I'm bothered by any change to canon characters that doesn't seem to make sense, but most of the time I can shrug it off-it's not a big deal, and raising a stink about someone's love of homosexual fanart/fanfiction just shows that I don't have the good sense to step away from something I find distasteful or disturbing (or just don't have an interest in). I can't let it go when it not only flies in the face of the original work, but does so with a sense of entitlement, as though the author/artist creating the fanart or fanfiction understands the characters better than the creator or creators. Of course, that isn't what you're asking about, but that's what I thought of in composing my response.
I don't know that children are necessarily exempt from these types of things. Being that most of us were gay to start out with and just never realized or were forced to suppress it.
It annoys me to see characters that are established as completely hetero (Naruto & Sasuke) put into that situation. On the other hand, any adult art that's hetero would ALSO be out of character. It just appears disproportionate.
I suppose my problem is that anime and furry fans seem to want to add 'gay' to everything. Case in point: There's m/m stuff of the Redwall cartoon.
Another thing I notice: M/M occuring between hero and villain/not-good-guy. It's so common nowadays that I just ignore it. Sonic/Shadow, Harry/Malfoy, Mario/Bowser, Starfox/Starwolf and so on and so forth. The concept always supposedly being 'that they just fight to keep up appearances'.
I try to steer clear of it, honestly, M/M being very much 'not-my-thing'. M/F and F/F is cool, but I prefer my canon chars to keep their established sexuality.
There's no one way to make it beleivable, but for writing normal works, I try to put myself in the perspective of the character I'm writing. If the character is hetero and is developing interest, how would you go it if you were that character? ((It's harder to put to words than it is to actually do, I'm afraid.))
All in all, though, sexual preference is just one part of a character. It doesn't have to change their entire outlook on life, after all.
Sonic: "OHMYGOD I JUST WENT GAY."
Tailsko: *sighs* "I'm female. We've discussed this a hundred times."
Sonic: "Oh, that's better. Knowing you and Shadow are women takes a load off my mind."
Tailsko: "..." *bites lip*
Any characters people say this sort of thing about in particular? Maybe some of them are supposed to be gay.
DO A BARREL ROLL!
Nicolette: Don't put images in my mind T.T
THE GOOEY TRANSLUCENCY OF THE BUILD AND STUFF <flexes>
Nicolette: MY EYES!!! IT BURNS THE PUPIL TO A WHITENED CRISP!!!
All I can say is that's a complete load of bull.
Take Amy and Lita from Sailor moon.
Wait, were they cannon lesbians, or was that fandom, it's been so long that I don't remember any more...
Wait, then why have I've seen more pictures of Amy and Lita together than those two?
This is similar to the argument that an author has to be the same orientation as the protagonist; if they aren't then they can't convey a "genuine" feelings of romance. (e.g. Can straight yaoi fangirls and straight yuri fanboys write characters that act, feel and talk in romantic situations as "real" gay and lesbian people do?) Sure, there's personal variation in how characters and "real people" act and say, but some general attitudes that are consistent sometimes aren't replicated in writing (either fanfiction or original writing). I personally feel that if you have 1/3 a brain and don't lapse into some overly mushy and excessively detailed hawt seks actz, then it's very possible to do so.
As for your argument, I think that the believability really depends on the situation and also in the tone that the work's written. If you're writing for your own amusement, then anything goes. But if you try to make it a seriously toned work, then it's compromised by being horribly contrived and epically fails. The sexual preference does more than just that, it forms a character's psyche and that becomes reified in things like body language, tone of voice, word choice, and actions throughout the course of a written work. However, I'm of the opinion that fanfics are literary junk food and if you want to devote some effort into something, then do an original work instead of perverting someone else's hard work and ideas.
I'm really really curious as to what you mean when you say that their sexuality alters their psyche. How is it different? And why does it automatically fail on premise?
...that becomes reified in things like body language, tone of voice, word choice, and actions throughout the course of a written work.
If you have someone that has a set sexual preference, it affects the things I've mentioned above. If you then tamper with it, you'll have to change what/how that character reacts to thing and also change traits above to remain consistent or you'll have a personality non-sequitor and will leave the reader scratching their heads. You will have then created a token character or to exhibit a trait and simply mention it in passing. Either way, it's lame and doesn't have any meaningful contribution and isn't a meaningful change.
Then if that's what you're asking, I'm not sure what you're asking for. I don't think it'd make any real difference because that's how the character would be—from the start—and each character expresses the aforementioned traits within a framework that's molded by their life experiences and not so much (but an influence nonetheless) by their sexuality.
I think the distinction here comes with the phrase "passed the point of believability." That point probably varies for every different individual, there-by making this an impossible question to answer in objective terms. Someone who claims to have a different sexual preference every month would probably be much more likely to believe a character's preferences could change than someone who's decided to be straight all his or her life.
Overall, I say you should do whatever you want with a character (legally, of course). There will always be some people who like the changes you make, and there will always be some people who don't. It's better to have done something debatable than to have not done anything at all.
For example, my character Pinton the Pig is a super macho guy. If I make him gay or bisexual now it would look out of character, because we have seen him chasing female ass all the time. (actually I made Pinton gay once, but it was an "alternate universe" story)
The environment is important too. My comics take place in a distant future, so I can invent any kind of society I want. I have invented alien civilizations where bisexuality is the norm.
It also depends on the kind of story you are doing. If its a humorous thing, there is no big deal making everyone gay just for fun, because people won't expect any deep character development or complex psychologic structure on cartoon porn.
But if you are making something a little more complex, you would need to think about the background of your character and handle things like "how long has him be homosexual" and "how come he came out of the closet just now and nobody else noticed anything all this time".
Put a gay or Bi sticker on Sonic and everyone get's pissy cause of the stage setting of SallyxSonic sceens that would break charater alittle... then we could even go as far as making a charater like.... Tenchi Gay... Then what's the point in having a house full of girls, And a Girlfriend.... Besides thte fact that not wanting all of them would mean he was initially gay... *shrugs* The charater doesn't change... just the views and fan service makes little to no sense when people wanna keep them in 'ONE' light. That's my opinion... ^^;... and ramble...
If an overly radical sex change occurs, that's one thing. But if you simply put a new label on an already established character, it shouldn't "really" change his actions or behavior unless it's a dramatic change. AKA, a plot device.
take tails for instance. if he were straight and paired up with amy or rouge or some other female he would be shy at first but then become more assertive once he got a little more confident throughout the encounter. if her were gay or bi and with sonic hed still be tails and still be shy at first but get a little bolder as he got more confident throughout the encounter :D
Your sexuality is part of who you are- can you honestly say that you would not think, or behave differently if you were attracted to a different gender?
Your personality is not in a vacuum. The issues you face and the people you interact with have an affect on it. and having a preference of one gender over another changes those issues and sometimes the people, or at least the way you interact with them.
No, being of a different sexual preference doesn't instantly make you a different person, but it will inevitably lead you down a different path in life, which in turn *will* make you a different person.
There is, in social psychology, what is known as the Fallacy of Outgroup Homogeneity, which in plain English means, we tend to think everyone in a group we don't belong to is the same. So straight people want to characterize homosexuals as being certain ways, when the truth is, there is just as much variety amongst them as there is among straight people.
Also, I've had friends make the transition from straight to gay or lesbian, and while some of them felt peer pressure to alter their lifestyle, I can't say any of them fundamentally became different people.
In comics or what not, if a character is suddenly going to have a sexuality change then there better be a damn good reason other than "we wanted to try to boost ratings". If a character changes sexuality in a fanwork then they better have a reason other than "I wanted to bang so-and-so" and make it well written.
Just my opinion, I'm all for keeping characters true to canon when used in fanworks.
I'm not asking, I don't want to know, and I think that secret should never be released into the world.
Just a thought.
This question is only relevant if the character's sexuality is a crucial part of the storyline. For example, Sonic could totally be gay for Shadow for all we know. The way he talked to Shadow in STH raised my eyebrow a few times.
If the preference is clearly part of the canon however, then you can argue that the character is different. People just seem to assume that characters are straight unless there are hints of the contrary, and thus they interpret the character to have certain feelings about other characters based on this assumption. This is why they argue that gay is different.
Pairings like Sasuke/Naruto and Sonic/Shadow on the other hand, are acceptable because said characters already have an unhealthy obsession with each other, so why not push them across the edge XD
Me and a friend have had discussions on this very topic. He considers it a major change to their personality. I just see it as one more personal trait that you can't see from afar, and I consider other things to be much worse in terms of warping a character. I only dislike "slash" fics when there's a change to the characters' personalities outside the preference. I'd say, personality is then about what kind of, for instance, men a character likes. Not the gender itself. That's more like whether they can drink milk without getting sick and if they were born with red hair. That is, it's a part of them, but not to do with their personality at all.
Me and my friend discuss this now and then, and are both fascinated by the difference in opinion. (it did help me to understand why he was so negative towards fics / art with the theme) But he also considers homosexuality something unnatural - which I don't. That has to play in. Bisexuality is, to him, more OK because it still is "halfway right". XD
I don't know if it matters, but for me there's been a lot of hours and energy going into debating my own preferences with myself, and once I arrived at "probably bi" the whole issue sort of stopped being such a big deal. It really suddenly just let go and now I also find it very hard to think that it matters so much to who a person is. I do find it something you can lie to yourself about, which complicates things - you can't lie about your eyes or your puking if drinking milk - but it's still there, and it's not something that develops over time and through decisions.
I used to think it was way past weird with homo / bisexuality in itself as a little and a slightly bigger kid, but somewhere along the line my view changed. Like new glasses. I think it had a lot to do with deciding what seems right to me, instead of the populace or "the book" (whichever book one follows). Lucky me or I would've had real problems ;) No seriously... when I went to school as a kid, it was commonly accepted that homosexuals were some kind of disturbed people who were really really bad for you. Smashing windows or drowning cats would probably have been more accepted in those circles. I think a lot of that thinking is still out there, in many people, the way most people avoid and fear anything else that they don't really know.
I guess one thing to note is, let's just say, homosexual characters often have a much sharper interest and affinity for their sexuality and are often vocal about it. (If not, ear stinging and eye watering about it.) A character who orients their behavior in public, in occupation, and in private around their sexuality obviously have a personality that is effectively wrapped up the same way, that supplied with a change in orientation might have a dramatic change. Egos, dominant characteristics, and even reservation can increase and decrease. You're basically looking at one character as gregarious versus introverted because their need to be expressive is stymied. Let's face it. Homosexual characters are very expressive and Heterosexuals aren't exactly trying to get the word out on the concept. (Since it's kind of initial.)
Please keep in mind, I'm trying to not to sound like some hard up jerk with a beef with something. I'm simply applying what I know and what I've studied from a neutral stand point. As my own personal opinion, I try to avoid making a very sexually oriented character unless the situation strenuously demands it. It's also hard for me to take such characters seriously as they come off as pretentious and even shallow at best. Perhaps it's that I'm admittedly a bit genophobic, but I do know that one shouldn't avoid sexuality in a character entirely. Last thing you need is an utter prude. Hehehe.
However, I do kind of take issue with the 'homosexuals are expressive' thing. I don't necessarily think that's true; as a matter of fact, tons of homosexual characters have had very reserved personalities for the very same reason that others had outgoing ones- societal acceptance. You seem to be working off the idea that the character is already defined by their sexuality, which is not quite what I was asking.
It's a matter of opinion, basically.
*shrugs*
Take Sonic for instance. Could I see Sonic in a relationship with Tails? Of course, regardless of which gender Tails is (because it's never REALLY specified totally). So yeah, that's believable. Knuckles? Okay, somewhat believable. Sexuality is never a big issue in Sonic, so it's not really addressed, and Sonic isn't really all that attracted to Amy (yes he cares for her, but he's also annoyed as hell and there are times when she's downright psychotic). But he's a free spirit and I can see that kind of interaction going.
Now Sonic and Shadow? I... dunno. They don't seem like they'd do that. Shadow seems very anti-sexual, or he'd be the kind that'd take out his frustrations in a sexual manner, rather than having a healthy relationship with someone.
Now Eggman... I'd prefer not to think about that.
When this happens, the rapid change in a character's personality becomes difficult to follow, and furthermore, many viewers can feel alienated from what they might have had in common with the character. This can be made worse when the author's ego is used to "play god" with the characters and retcon them in ways that go unexplained, and thus hard for the viewer to believe. It is very difficult to explain a change like this in details that both the viewer and artist can relate to, and furthermore, such a subject does have personal prejudices and stereotypes which come into play :V