I just hope that the idiots who voted for the GOP are the first to suffer, and suffer enormously.

Yes, but why should we have to suffer along with them?

Because too many !GOP voters sat on their asses instead of going out to vote. Slothliness has its wages too.

The sad thing is is that they'll just blame liberals for all their problems once again and vote for someone even more extremist. Maybe David Duke will be the next 'outsider'.

Might want to check my math on this...

So carrier pays the average wage for union members there is about $23 an hour.
http://www.ibj.com/articles/57162-c.....in-mexico-move
X 40 hours a week = $920.00
X 52 weeks = $47,840.00
Each employee's tax
Your taxes are estimated at $5,179.
Your Estimated State Income Tax: $1,546
X 1100 number of jobs saved.
$5,696,900 fed tax paid
$1,700,600 state tax paid

= $7,397,500.00 Repaid in just taxes.

Not to mention all the food, housing, cars, and furry porn they will buy over the year.
And this is just one year.

http://www.bankrate.com/calculators.....#ixzz4RjhdFEWT
https://smartasset.com/taxes/indian.....tor#whXtMGipFe

So what you're saying is the fed continues to get its full share of taxes while the population of the state of Indiana takes a $5.3 million/year hit. I'm not even going to go into the fact that Pence had already destroyed Indiana's economy which is why Carrier was going to move out in the first place. I don't care how you spin it...it's still corporate blackmail.

A source with knowledge of the state’s negotiation with Carrier’s parent company, United Technologies, said the deal would grant the parent company of Carrier Corp. $7 million in financial incentives over 10 years in exchange for a guarantee that the air and heating conditioning company would retain at least 1,000 jobs and invest $16 million into its Indiana operation.

Ok, so that is $7,000,000 Spread out over 10 years. = $700,000 a year.
So Indiana is making over a Million in taxes, a year.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-.....ant-talk-about

I hear what you're saying, but that Indiana Carrier plant currently employs 2100 people. Carrier was going to move all 2100 jobs. The agreement was to keep only 1000 jobs here, not 1,100. That's still a net loss of 1,100 jobs. Let's use your calculations:

Your Estimated State Income Tax: $1,546/person
X 2100 number of current jobs,
$3,246,600 total state tax paid

x keeping 1000 jobs here
$1,546,000 state tax paid

$3,246,600 was paid - $1,546,000 now paid = $1,700,600/yr loss
$1,700,600/yr loss + 700,000/yr paid back = $2,400,600/yr to be made up by Indiana's other residents, the ones who don't work for Carrier.

See what I mean about numbers being manipulated? When you don't have all the facts, it's easy to make something as rotten as spoiled eggs look good.

So you would rather have the tax loss to be $3,246,600
But I can see how you'd rather see 2100 folks Equally out of work and not just 1100.

Typical Republican rhetoric against Democrat positions which has nothing to do with the truth. No, I'd rather they keep all 2100 jobs in Indiana. To claim I deem otherwise is offensive to me and all liberal Democrats, but it's typical of the bullshit we have to put up with from the GOP. I would've worked out a way to keep all 2100 jobs in Indiana and not paid United Technologies the extortion money they got to keep less than half the jobs. What's even more interesting, this is a complete reversal of the GOP stance that free enterprise is the only true path and government should keep their fingers out of running private companies. But isn't that what Trump and Pence just did?

1: Trump is not a Republican.

2: I am not a Republican.

3: There is a reason that Carrier was/is moving to Mexico.
High taxes and too much regulation.
In story after story, when they talk to businessmen, large and small, they all say the same thing. It's the stifling governmental regulations. Hardest hit are small minority start-ups and the inability to get a loan.

The New York Times:
Dodd-Frank Is Hurting Community Banks
Regulatory-driven consolidation is particularly concerning because as Fed Gov. Daniel Tarullo noted in a 2009 speech, the importance of traditional financial services – like those provided by community banks – “tends to increase” in times of crisis. In a 2015 working paper we found that while these banks accounted for just 22 percent of outstanding bank loans, they also accounted for over three-quarters of agricultural loans and half of small business loans. While “the financial crisis did not originate in smaller banks,” as Tarullo noted, the post-crisis response jeopardizes their critical role in banking system resiliency.
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat.....ommunity-banks

Do I like that Trump has gotten in to the business of picking winners and losers?
No.
Do I like that Trump is sending a signal that he would rather see businesses start, thrive, and grow. And not have the government stand on it's neck?
You bet'cha.
I have an idea... Make government Smaller.
Get out of the way of business and out of people's private lives.
Gee, I sound like a Libertarian, go figure.

Then we fix Dodd-Frank to make it good for community banks but not remove the protections required for larger exchanges. I agree, knee-jerk reactions are never the best action...I always consider them temporary until better planning can be put into effect. The problem is no one ever gets around to do that proper planning.

The Affordable Care Act is the same way. It's not perfect and no one ever said it was. Even Obama says it has problems. But we FIX the problems. You don't just repeal it on the whim something better will come along. I guarantee you the Republicans don't have anything to replace it with. Remember what I said about getting around to it... I wonder if Trump and all of the other Republicans will take credit for the thousands they'll kill when their medical coverage is removed? I guess if they're willing to kill thousands in war, then this is just another form of war against the American people.

The high tax argument has become so ingrained it's automatic. Yes, we have one of the highest percentages for corporate taxes. But we have something many other countries don't: tax deductions. That changes the playing field, putting the US effective corporate tax rates right in the center of other countries. That's how a multi-billion dollar company like General Electric paid NO taxes for several years. I'd support a reduction in taxes for business and industry, if they'll remove the deductions. That ain't gonna happen. And companies are starting to pull out of these other countries because they've discovered they're paying more taxes there without their deductions than they were in the U.S.

I'll ask just one more thing. What government regulations are stifling small businesses? I love the way everyone blames "government regulations," but they never state what those are or how they're hampering these businesses.

I wonder if Trump and all of the other Republicans will take credit for the thousands they'll kill when their medical coverage is removed?

Oh My God... Do you really believe that?
Every news story I've seen is how they are trying NOT to do just that.
First it was Paul Ryan pushing a little old lady off a cliff in a wheelchair, and now this?

No wonder you guys lost the popular vote.

Total votes cast in 2016: 135,564,725

Votes for Clinton: -65,259,681

So that means there were 70,305,044
folks that did NOT vote for Clinton.

I think it's a valid question. One that deserves to be answered, especially to those affected by any decision they make. Personally, I expect the radical right to put forth the legislation to repeal the ACA as soon as Congress convenes, as they've tried to do over 80 times while Obama was president. I also expect them to brow beat other Republicans into supporting and voting for it. The question becomes whether Trump is smart enough to know what will happen if he signs that legislation.

If there is one thing I've come to trust about the GOP, is that they can't be trusted. (Yes, I know the Democrats lie as well. Except they do it so badly it's easy to catch them at it.) And cut out the strawman arguments about vote counts. It doesn't become you to use their arguing techniques. And what about those government regulations I asked for?

Regulations you asked for. Actually I just Googled, " What government regulations are stifling small businesses?"

When we discovered that complying with regulations would triple our startup costs while providing no significant benefit to anyone other than people paid to serve as government inspectors, we gave up our dream.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/econo.....all-businesses

“They can be federal, state, or local—and sometimes they conflict,” Alan Blake of Austin-based Yorktown Technologies told us. “Identifying, understanding, and complying with all these regulations is a huge loss of productivity…Entrepreneurs don’t have the resources to hire an in-house counsel or a chief financial officer. They're trying to do all of it themselves.”
https://www.uschamber.com/above-the.....all-businesses

Taxes and the regulatory environment are two of Main Street's biggest concerns, according to the NFIB. The conservative lobbying group points out that complying with regulations costs about $11,000 per worker each year for businesses with fewer than 50 employees — nearly 30 percent higher than the cost for larger businesses.
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/26/ahea.....egulation.html


New HHS secretary Tom Price:

While some Republicans have attacked the Affordable Care Act without proposing an alternative, Mr. Price has introduced bills offering a detailed, comprehensive replacement plan in every Congress since 2009, when Democrats started work on the legislation. Many of his ideas are included in the “Better Way” agenda issued several months ago by House Republicans.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/28/u.....-services.html

A little history about him.
As a state senator, Price served on committees for health and human services, consumer affairs and education, among others. The legislature’s website states that Price successfully sponsored legislation increasing safety for children in Home Childcare Facilities, which passed.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/.....dept/94578690/
Wow, what a monster!

Please note I use sources such as CNBC and the New York Times.
Not republican 'talking points'.
I don't even go to those sites like Drudg or Brightbart.

The vote count was my idea, I was getting tired of hearing that Clinton won the popular vote. I just wanted to see how many people voted, 'Anybody but her'.

The one thing I note about all those articles is they all speak in generalities, never any specifics. When they do get specific, I question their sources. For example, the statement "complying with regulations costs about $11,000 per worker each year" is a gross exaggeration. It makes it seem ALL jobs cost their company $11,000/yr/worker. I'm sure there are some positions out there that this is true...but it's by no means the "norm" for all businesses.

The first article was about a brewery. Alcohol, thanks to America's puritanical mindset, has always been the subject of blocks, the biggest being prohibition in the 20's. They claim their startup costs would be 3x more meeting the regulations. Which regulations? Federal? State? Local? Exactly where would those costs occur? And if startup costs are so high for them, how do you explain the half-dozen microbreweries that have opened locally here within the past few years? It sounds more like they just weren't prepared to put forth the effort. They wanted it cheap and fast.

I have written off the US Chamber of Commerce as a Republican shill organization a long time ago. I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of that place.

As for Price, he's a member of the Tea Party caucus. Because he got a few things right does not make him a good candidate for control of a trillion dollar government agency. For one thing, he wants to privatize Medicare and Medicaid, changing them from a "defined benefit" to a "defined contribution." That means the money would be given to the states, to dole out to their people as they want under whatever rules they want, to be paid to private insurance companies at whatever rate those companies want to charge. In other words, he's just added another layer of profit-taking into a program where the majority of monies should go to help people...not some corporation that already has more money than they know what to do with.

You said that, "fact that Pence had already destroyed Indiana's economy".

But the stories I found about Indiana budget were:

Between fiscal years 2014 and 2015, total government spending in Indiana increased by approximately $2.1 billion—from $27.3 billion in fiscal year 2014 to an estimated $29.3 billion in 2015. This represents a 7.10-percent increase.

And

Indiana spent $210.4 million less than it took in during the 2015 budget year that ended June 30, growing the state's reserve funds to a near-record $2.14 billion.

Doesn't seem all that "destroyed" to me.

Under Mike Pence: The taxes are lower, the unemployment is also lower. (4.7 percent in May.)
And school funding has increased. (When simply looking at dollars, Indiana’s current state budget does give the largest school funding increase. The two-year budget spends about $480 million more toward K-12 education.)

Indiana’s labor force — those who are either working or actively looking for a job — has grown by 186,527 people during Pence’s time in office. But that may be accounted for by the growth in state population which has increased by nearly 9% between 2000 and 2015. When the state's population is taken into account, a larger percentage of state residents were working in 2000 than 2016. Trump highlighted that growth as unusual creating problems, which it isn't. There are 41 states and Washington, D.C., with a larger labor force today, with six outpacing Indiana.

The increase in state spending is almost directly attributable to the growth of state workers, as records indicate the number of government employees has increased under Pence. So much for his claim of "shrinking the state government." Those increased state worker numbers also contribute to the reduction of the unemployment figure from 8.4% to 5% (not 4.7% as some would have you believe), a drop of 3.4%. Impressive until you realize the overall national unemployment rate dropped 3.3% during the same time as the economy recovered after the Bush collapse. In other words, it follows the growing US economy under the guidance of President Obama's administration, not anything Pence did. But as a politician, he's happy to take credit for it. According to BLS data, private sector job growth rate was only 5.9%. Florida led the way with a 12.7% increase, followed by Utah at 12.4% and Oregon at 11.5%. In all 20 states plus the District of Columbia had higher job growth rates.

Indiana has added 147,800 jobs between when Pence took office in January 2013 until May 2016. That's actually rather mediocre. FactCheck.org, lists 18 other states that added more jobs during the same time. While that includes larger states such as California (1.3 million) and Texas (840,000), it also includes states with smaller populations such as South Carolina (152,000) and Oregon (157,000.) In other words, Pence did nothing to improve his state beyond the growth it would have seen naturally under no governor at all.

Oh, Trump praised Pence for balancing the state budget. But all state budgets except Vermont are required by law to be balanced. Trump also trumpeted Indiana's AAA bond rating, saying very few states have that. But they had that rating from 2008, five years BEFORE Pence took office. Current discussions are looking at whether the state be downgraded to AA...but no action has been taken on that yet. But a possible downgrade two years after Pence took office? I don't consider that creating a decent economy.

And there's more to an economy than just numbers. Like how many people can afford basic necessities such as food to eat. The Department of Agriculture found nearly 15% of Hoosiers from 2012 to 2015 experienced food insecurity at some point in a given year, meaning they couldn’t get adequate food due to lack of money. That's a 1.4% increase over the previous three-year period while the country was seeing an overall decline. That's 4.5% boost from a decade ago. Yet Pence decided to reinstate a work requirement for food stamps that kicked tens of thousands of people off the rolls in 2015, meaning those figures will only go up. While requiring work may seem like a good idea, not everyone who was getting food stamps can work.

Unless it's something really gross, money figures can be manipulated to make it appear as if everything is rosy. Companies do it all the time, especially when they're on the market to be sold. You have to look beyond the dollar figures to see what's actually happening in the state. Most people prefer to look at the dollar amounts only because it's something easy for them to understand. In another 2 years Pence's actions on the Indiana budget will start to be felt big time if they aren't reversed.

Geeze... I just love these democratic talking points.
Tried to wade through this.
One thing I noted is that Indiana it in the middle of all these stats.
Not the best at anything and not the worst.
Except for the AAA rating.
True it was that before he took office. But ratings can drop, as two states found out during this time. And when you throw in all the surrounding states have a AA+ Ohio or lower.
Illinois A-, Kentucky and Michigan AA-. But I'm sure you'll say he had nothing to do with keeping it.
And after looking at all the 'cut and past' originating web pages.
They all say the same thing.
Indiana is average.
But I"m also sure you still feel Pence is the worst thing to have happened to Indiana.
All I can say it's a good thing he's not their governor any more.

The point is Pence was "chosen" by Trump (for some reason, I doubt that) because of the "Great" things he's done in Indiana and Trump is going to make America "Great" again. As you said, Indiana is average. There's no greatness there, just more mediocrity. Which means they're doing better than most red states. But far under-performing most blue states.

We do agree on one thing: it's a good thing he's not their governor anymore. At least now the Hoosiers stand a fighting chance of survival.

Pence was picked for one reason...

He'll look nice at important funerals.

Well that and he can walk around the capital and not get lost.

Ha hah ha! I like that. :)

I'm more concerned he was picked by those on the radical right and forced Trump into taking him on. He did seem to come out of nowhere rather rapidly. At least he wasn't on the original list Trump was using for possible VPs. Now why would they do this? Simple...Trump isn't going to serve all four years. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we see impeachment proceedings against him begin within his first year by his own party. That will put the radical right in the driver's seat, where they've wanted to be all along. History is my basis...this election never saw as much money spent against members of the same party as the RR Republicans spent to get their more moderate brothers out of office and their candidate in. I see them having no remorse in doing the same to Trump who they already see as a RINO because he's reneged on so many of his election promises.