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"If you change your ways we'll welcome you, honest!"
7 years ago
🙐✿🙖 There are many philosophies about dog training. I personally, and many with me, believe in methods using primarily positive reinforcement, supplemented with sparse use of negative punishment and/or verbal corrections (technically positive punishment) if necessary to address negative behaviors. I believe in these methods because far as I've seen, they minimize stress and make behaving in the desired way an enjoyable experience for the dog. It took me maybe 2-3 5-10 minute sessions, tops, to teach my housemate's 8-year-old dog to sit, using only positive reinforcement. I rarely have to ask her slightly neurotic 5-7-year-old dog to settle down more than once. (To be clear, these are much-loved and overall well-cared-for dogs, that have decent recall, their owner just happens to be on the old and soft-hearted side, with some minor mobility issues, so training for anything other than coming when called hasn't been a priority for her.)
Training people isn't much different from training dogs. You can explain to them what it is you want them to do, but ultimately, if you put off rewarding them for good behavior for too long, they're not going to be very motivated to continue. This goes doubly if there is a perceived reward for "bad" behavior - it's harder to teach a kid not to sneak cookies from the cookie jar than it is to teach them not to sneak brussel sprouts off the dinner table before saying grace. (Unless your child is a changeling who actually likes brussel sprouts, in which case you're shit out of luck, I guess. :P) You want to encourage the behavior you want to see.
I know it can feel off-putting to praise someone you overall dislike. Trust me. But if you don't, how are they going to know the difference between "good" and "bad" behavior? If Richard Spencer gives up his seat on the bus for me (yeah, I know, public transit in America, but you get the idea), I'm going to say "thank you", because that's the decent thing to do when someone does a nice thing for you. If Jimmy Åkesson stops to let me cross the street at a crosswalk without lights, I'll give him a wave in thanks, because that's the decent thing to do when someone does a nice thing for you, even if the law technically says I have right of way. (I mean, a car weighs like 100+ times what I do and is hell of a lot more durable, I ain't arguing right-of-way with a fucking car.) If goddamn Adolf fucking Hitler himself rises from his grave to hold the door for me, I'm going to thank him for holding the door because regardless of what else he's done holding the door was nice of him. And you know what? That does not make me a nazi, a racist, or a right-winger. It makes me a decent human being capable of appreciating little kindnesses in daily life.
Now, if any of them strikes up a conversation with me and starts trying to discuss the merits of eugenics, I'm going to tell them to sod off and take their racist bullshit with them, but I'm going to first give them the chance to do that. Or more importantly, to not do that. You don't show people how to be a decent person by coming after them with torches and pitchforks. By doing that you instead show them that people who are not like them are scary and hostile. You give the people you want them to walk away from the opportunity to voice sympathy and snare them just a little tighter.
Does this mean you have to be supportive of people you hope to reform no matter what? Hell no. Friends call friends on their bullshit. You're absolutely allowed to tell people "that thing you just said is hella not okay". You're allowed to choose to not associate with people who become too much of a drain on your energy, if it comes to that, because you still have to put yourself and your own well-being first. Just realize that someone will have to be the first person to give this maybe-former AltFurry a chance. And if no one steps up and does that, you can't well blame them for going back to the AltFurries. Humans are social animals. If only one group will have us, chances are we sooner or later will be drawn there. It's better to open up, be prepared to tell people "what you just said is a problem and this is why" if necessary, and maybe be let down once in a while, than to stand by and let the alt-right recruit all the outcasts because you're too goddamned preoccupied with only associating with people who already have the "right" (by which you mean "not alt-right") opinions.
No, you do not have an obligation to teach. But you should acknowledge that it might be just a teensy bit unfair of you to expect someone to learn if there's no one willing to take a chance on them and put a little effort into training. And as any dog trainer would tell you, training takes time. It takes patience. And sometimes you backslide.
But in the end, you end up with a well-trained dog. Or a well-reformed AltFurry. But maybe there isn't much difference in the grand scheme of things?
Training people isn't much different from training dogs. You can explain to them what it is you want them to do, but ultimately, if you put off rewarding them for good behavior for too long, they're not going to be very motivated to continue. This goes doubly if there is a perceived reward for "bad" behavior - it's harder to teach a kid not to sneak cookies from the cookie jar than it is to teach them not to sneak brussel sprouts off the dinner table before saying grace. (Unless your child is a changeling who actually likes brussel sprouts, in which case you're shit out of luck, I guess. :P) You want to encourage the behavior you want to see.
I know it can feel off-putting to praise someone you overall dislike. Trust me. But if you don't, how are they going to know the difference between "good" and "bad" behavior? If Richard Spencer gives up his seat on the bus for me (yeah, I know, public transit in America, but you get the idea), I'm going to say "thank you", because that's the decent thing to do when someone does a nice thing for you. If Jimmy Åkesson stops to let me cross the street at a crosswalk without lights, I'll give him a wave in thanks, because that's the decent thing to do when someone does a nice thing for you, even if the law technically says I have right of way. (I mean, a car weighs like 100+ times what I do and is hell of a lot more durable, I ain't arguing right-of-way with a fucking car.) If goddamn Adolf fucking Hitler himself rises from his grave to hold the door for me, I'm going to thank him for holding the door because regardless of what else he's done holding the door was nice of him. And you know what? That does not make me a nazi, a racist, or a right-winger. It makes me a decent human being capable of appreciating little kindnesses in daily life.
Now, if any of them strikes up a conversation with me and starts trying to discuss the merits of eugenics, I'm going to tell them to sod off and take their racist bullshit with them, but I'm going to first give them the chance to do that. Or more importantly, to not do that. You don't show people how to be a decent person by coming after them with torches and pitchforks. By doing that you instead show them that people who are not like them are scary and hostile. You give the people you want them to walk away from the opportunity to voice sympathy and snare them just a little tighter.
Does this mean you have to be supportive of people you hope to reform no matter what? Hell no. Friends call friends on their bullshit. You're absolutely allowed to tell people "that thing you just said is hella not okay". You're allowed to choose to not associate with people who become too much of a drain on your energy, if it comes to that, because you still have to put yourself and your own well-being first. Just realize that someone will have to be the first person to give this maybe-former AltFurry a chance. And if no one steps up and does that, you can't well blame them for going back to the AltFurries. Humans are social animals. If only one group will have us, chances are we sooner or later will be drawn there. It's better to open up, be prepared to tell people "what you just said is a problem and this is why" if necessary, and maybe be let down once in a while, than to stand by and let the alt-right recruit all the outcasts because you're too goddamned preoccupied with only associating with people who already have the "right" (by which you mean "not alt-right") opinions.
No, you do not have an obligation to teach. But you should acknowledge that it might be just a teensy bit unfair of you to expect someone to learn if there's no one willing to take a chance on them and put a little effort into training. And as any dog trainer would tell you, training takes time. It takes patience. And sometimes you backslide.
But in the end, you end up with a well-trained dog. Or a well-reformed AltFurry. But maybe there isn't much difference in the grand scheme of things?
Next part.
Not sure what you are talking about. But it seems like you are saying that 'AltFurry = Bad'. Especially the the ending you chose of "Or a well-reformed AltFurry.".
There... really isn't anything to 'reform' there. Sure, SOME AltFurry take things a bit too far. But what do you expect from a group that holds up freedom of speech/action/expression/association as an important concept?
There is nothing to reform really. It just depends on the views of the individual as to what you are talking about.
Personally. I don't like how tribalistic it has all become. For example, I'm trying to be more active on the site. Watching folks, leaving comments. Usually wishing them, quite honestly, a good life. And when they see my page, they respond with some extreme harshness. Calling me names and all kinds of things.
Heck, there is even someone on site who has has outright stated that they are 'being paid to harass and bully me' so that I do something they (or the individual paying them) want/s me to do!
Whereas in reality, I haven't done anything wrong, I don't hold any extreme views (unless you count believing that folks should have freedom over themselves and what they think 'extreme') and I would like everything to just calm down a bit.
AltFurry exists because the tribalism, hate and bigotry against those with right leaning or libertarian views has seemingly been spreading.
It is extremely saddening, when attempting to be non-partisan. When attempting to be fair. To get harassed and bulled because 'you aren't only attacking the "CORRECT" target'. I think you have some experience with this, actually.
Talking about that... how are you going?
I've been a bit worried about you lately. Just... with everything that happened and how it happened...
On the other hand, I really would pick a better hill to die on if I were in your shoes. If the Twitter account associated with/named for a major communication channel of the group retweets content that promotes eugenics and white supremacy, it's understandable if people want nothing to do with you if you call yourself AltFurry. It's one thing if it's a random member of a group doing a bad thing (and displaying a pattern of promoting racist/supremacist viewpoints is doing a bad thing). Another if the bad thing is done in a way that appears to speak for the group as a whole.
There's also the salient point of a tweet I made a while back, and a mistake that I've seen made by multiple people who go under the AltFurry label:
It is important not to confuse valuing the freedom of speech to say something despite it possibly offending people, with the freedom of speech to say something TO offend people.
The former is important to democratic society. The latter is juvenile bullshit.
Being that I'm a fucking hippie, I also believe in hate speech laws. Would be great if they weren't needed, but that's not the world we live in, and if you put freedom of speech above statements like "<slur>s are lazy and incompetent", to pull a very clear-cut example off the top of my head, or the mocking of people's sincerely felt identities, you don't believe in the free speech I believe in.
If you really want to make a good-faith effort to connect with people and not burn bridges, making statements like "this is why we need #AltFurry" (given what I noted above about the content of at least one prominent AltFurry Twitter account) and publicly making artwork alluding to fascism (satirical as you may call it) or suggesting that people's gender identities are invalid is not a very good tactic.
This Twitter thread may help explain what the fears of people who want to keep their distance from the AltFurries are.
It's still not right to call you names or harass you. But you do have to take a step back and look at your own actions. What you've been doing with your controversial artwork has not spoken of wanting things to calm down. Being provocative rarely results in less conflict.
On the other hand. Well, the Twitter account doesn't retweet those kinda things... so there is that.
There is also the salient point. Well yeah. But freedom of speech works for both. Yes it is juvenile bullshit, agreed. But many folks want/need to push the boundaries now. Because of how censored they feel/are not just within furry, but within society as a whole at the moment.
Being that your a 'fucking hippy'. Yeah. I don't agree with 'hate speech' laws. I actually strongly disagree with them.
Ok, lets have a look at what you linked. First there is no alluding, read the description, it is about how an artwork doesn't make the creator, nor the one who asked for the creation, into that thing. Next fascism, did you read the artwork or the description? It is about how folks falsely call others fascist so frequently now-a-days and that is extremely frustrating. Finally suggesting. Hmm... that one would need far more conversation and discussion. It was done as a response of Roarey getting suspended for creating his piece, and being frustrated about that level of censorship over something that is just a view on things. And yeah, the "more genders than there are stars in the galaxy" is kinda silly.
No, that Twitter thread doesn't help. Because AltFurry isn't altright. They are separate. Other than the name being a joke reference.
"It's still not right to call you names or harass you."
"But you do have to take a step back and look at your own actions. What you've been doing with your controversial artwork has not spoken of wanting things to calm down. Being provocative rarely results in less conflict."
Uhh-huh. So... so I guess then... just playing devil's advocate here. While the calling you names and harassment of you wasn't right. Your actions are what prompted it? I mean, if you only sided with the far-left, you would have been fine. What you were doing is being controversial with your non-partisan decisions. I mean, being provocative in the way you did your rulings rarely resulted in less conflict... yes? Or. I mean, the rape wasn't right, but look at their actions and what they were wearing... yeah?
My artworks are created to try and get folks to THINK. Not to provoke. Just to get them to see it and go... hey... ok then. And sit down for a moment, read the description and consider things from a different opinion/view/angle and why it was created.
I am always more than happy to discuss things. And will only stop discussing when folks twist my words or pretend that I said things I didn't.
Currently, I am being heavily harassed, in a coordinated manner, from someone who has stated to me they are being paid to do so. This is completely inappropriate, regardless of "what I was wearing".
2. I'll give you enough benefit of the doubt to allow for the possibility that you didn't see the tweets I did on the account's timeline in the past. But it doesn't take a whole lot of scrolling now to see retweets from Breitbart, as well as a general pattern in retweeting content that casts Islam and POC in a negative light. Seriously. Not a good hill to die on. I will not entertain further discussion on it, because attempting to explain away that account's information behavior requires a certain amount of intellectual dishonesty that I do not have the spoons to deal with.
3. Hey, I get feeling disenfranchised, but if that feeling exhibits itself in a need to be offensive for offense's sake, the problem is with you, not society. Sorry, that's just bog standard good ol' common courtesy. You don't go around throwing slurs and prejudice left and right or spreading malicious misinformation about other people (and doing so isn't "pushing boundaries" - calling it that is disingenuous at best). While I don't think it's an absolute, there's also the comedy standard of striking up to give at least fleeting consideration. Don't tread on people who have it hard enough already.
4. The Swedish hate speech law (technically "agitation against ethnic group" though it includes sexuality, religion, and comparable groups in its coverage; the link points to the prosecutor's office's plain text definition rather than the text of the law in question) does not, in my opinion, limit justifiable free speech. What it does is limit disparaging expressions directed at groups based on immutable aspects of their identity. In theory, yes, it limits free speech, but in practice, I would say nothing of value is lost in limiting these expressions. It does not appreciably limit the important role free speech has in society.
5. The stated purpose of the artwork (which, yes, I did read before linking the submissions) does not preclude allusions to nazism. There's innumerable ways you could be making the same point without dressing your fursona in nazi-esque regalia or having him give the salute. The allusions are in the imagery chosen, and regardless of your intended message it will alienate people. Again, if your goal is to build bridges and not burn them that is a poor choice of imagery - the bridges you'll be building will be overwhelmingly in one direction, and you'll likely be burning more bridges in the other direction along the way. The battles you've picked with some of your statements and art are battles where you end up looking like you're siding with some pretty unsavory ideologies.
I'm not saying anything about your actual motives. I'm speaking about what your actions communicate, and pointing out how they are counter-productive to your stated aims. As is using phrasing like "more genders than there are stars in the galaxy" - that's incredibly dismissive of nonbinary people, and is wording most commonly used by trolls and people leaning towards the extreme right to invalidate and dehumanize enbies, similar to "I identify as an Apache attack helicopter" memeing. And just to be explicitly clear about this, you are saying this to someone who does identify as a nonbinary gender, albeit not with a very strong sense of gender overall. So the absolute best reading of your actions to date is... still not very flattering, to be honest.
6. Given point 2 above, "it's just a joke" falls pretty flat. If it is a joke it was poorly chosen, worse executed, and has long run past its shelf-life. Continuing to defend the name at this point at the very least indicates that AltFurry doesn't mind the connection to the alt-right. That doesn't exactly inspire sympathy.
7. That does not look like good-faith arguing to me. There is very little equivalence between the situations you're comparing, and you're refusing responsibility for the provocative nature of your own work.
: 3
Thank you for having a conversation.