Special Non-Monday Montroversy Topic: Niney Levin
16 years ago
On this solemn occasion, we pause to reflect on the significance of this date. Oh wait, there is none.
Why? Because this is September 11th, 2009. It's been eight damn years since 9/11/01. But it sure doesn't feel like it. We are still allowing this calendar date to control us. We are still letting it have more power over us than it should.
Now for starters, most of my criticism here is labeled at the media; news and entertainment. This is where I'm seeing the most stupidity, and I'd like to believe that average folks are smarter than that. It'll help if I don't get a lot of comments telling me I'm 'insensitive' for talking about this subject in less-than-reverent terms. Sorry; that's what I do. I've laid the smackdown on Christianity, Islam, feminism, the military, skeptics, Michael Bay and even *optimism* for chrissakes. NOTHING is safe from me.
First off, I wanna remind everyone of a fact that many of you will be uncomfortable with: On a global scale, nothing of importance happened on 9/11.
That's true in more ways than one. For starters, we have to face up to the fact that America, as a country, is pretty much a pampered, pudgy rich kid who's never really known just how bad life can get. Sure, we've had a rocky past, but have we ever had a nationwide plague? Mass starvation? Endless, undeclared war waged by the government on its own people? No, we haven't. And don't try to be a smartass by claiming that we have. What happened to us on 9/11 was terrible. No sane person can dispute this. THOUSANDS of people lost their lives for no good reason. But when you compare that to what some other countries go through, sometimes on a daily basis, it's a drop in the bucket.
Here's an example: Three thousand of us died on 9/11, right? However, on March 9th through 10th 1945, American bombers dropped 1665 tons of incendiaries on Japanese cities, including explosives whose purpose was to intentionally deter and kill firefighters (88 of them, to be precise). The total campaign is believed to have killed 672,000 people, and 87.4 percent of the areas bombed were residential zones. In two days, Americans burned to death 224 times the number of people who died on 9/11. The two events are not a perfect comparison, but it does illustrate the fact that humans in general have gotten very good at killing large numbers of their own kind in large chunks. No country is innocent.
Wanna be humbled even more? Try to imagine how many MILLIONS of animals die every day. Also, consider the fact that 99.99% of the species on this planet have no idea that 9/11 even occurred.
Oh, and if you look at the planet's history on a cosmic time scale? Fuck! Our entire civilization's barely been half an eyeblink!
I say this not to be an asshole, but to ask people to put things in perspective. Call it a tragedy, fine. It _absolutely_ is. But when I hear people say that it was the 'worst terrorist attack in history', I cringe. Anyone who says that needs to be whapped with a history book. Worse things have happened to human beings before, and worse things will happen to us in the future. One could even easily claim that the Great Depression caused more total harm to our country than those four airplanes did. As my friend Ether Bunny brilliantly put it, "Just because something's the worst thing to happen to YOU doesn't mean it's the worst thing to happen EVER."
When the media inflates 9/11 beyond what it really was, it not only cheapens what actually happened, but it's usually nothing more than a slimy ploy to tug on people's emotions for ratings. The actual emotions the event caused are painful enough without some cocksucking news anchor reopening that wound at every opportunity just to get you to stay tuned.
I've got more to say on that, but right now I'd like to take a little detour and talk about something else regarding 9/11: the conspiracies.
Right now, some of you are salivating, sure that I'm either gonna chew out people who are wacko enough to think that there is such a conspiracy, or that I'm gonna chew out anyone stupid enough to think there's NOT a conspiracy. Well, fuck you both. You're both assholes.
When I did my Montroversy about skepticism, I said in the comments that Mythbusters has the perfect attitude: test everything. Even if it sounds ridiculous, you test it anyway, because you can't always predict beforehand what will and won't turn out to be true. I have seen people whose intelligence I otherwise respect suddenly turn into closed-minded pricks when it comes to the concept of '9/11 Truth'. I really like both South Park and Penn & Teller's Bullshit, but was pissed off when both those shows completely dismissed all 'truthers' as crazy people. South Park even admitted that ONE IN FOUR PEOPLE think there was some kind of conspiracy. When a full quarter of the population suspects something, and you try to make that go away by calling them all crazy, then you are a shithead of unimaginable magnitude.
I'm not going to get into debating the evidence. Let me make that even clearer: I AM NOT GOING TO GET INTO DEBATING THE EVIDENCE. This is long enough already, and it'll kill my finger muscles if I even try. But what I am going to do now is simply show why the idea of a conspiracy is at least possible. Maybe even probable.
For starters, let's take in the wider picture of American history. When World War I was beginning (Oh Christ, a Zero Wing reference...), the Germans torpedoed the ocean liner Lusitania, killing over a thousand passengers. This made lots of other countries pissed off at Germany, and according to Wikipedia, "was instrumental in bringing the United States into World War I". But things weren't so simple. Germany had said that the British were using cruise ships to carry munitions to their soldiers; essentially turning the passengers into human shields. The Germans said they would fire on any ship that entered a certain area, and even took out a full-page newspaper ad to explicitly warn passengers of the Lusitania that they would be shot at!! And yes, the ship was carrying shitloads of ammunition and had undergone renovations to turn it into a half-cruiser, half-battleship. But instead of looking at this as the Germans firing upon an enemy ship under the normal rules of warfare, and after giving ample warning too, we Americans called it a cowardly, sneaky act.
Skip forward to World War II. What was the event that galvanized support for entering the war then? The Japanese sneak attack on Pearl Harbor. Only it wasn't a sneak attack at all. At best you could say that it was a situation where everyone knew an attack was imminent, but didn't know the actual location. At worst, you could say that the American government intentionally ignored warnings because public sentiment was very much against joining the war, and they knew an attack would change people's minds. It's important to realize that most of the worst Nazi atrocities were not known about in America until after, or late into, the war. There was even open Nazi sympathy in America. And after WWI, Americans had no desire to get into another huge conflict. So maybe it was right to allow the attack, letting hundreds die so that millions would be spared the cruelties of the Third Reich. Maybe. I can't say for sure. But what is clear is that the popular perception of the Pearl Harbor attack does not match the reality.
Then we come to Vietnam. Christ, in high school American history I learned that the Gulf Of Tonkin incident, the catalyst for America entering the war, never happened at all and was a complete lie right from the beginning. There's no argument here: it's been proven fully enough to be in the freakin' textbooks. Which usually do everything possible to paint America as the messiah of the world (at least the ones I've seen).
So now we're back at 9/11. Foreigners attack in a sneaky, cowardly way, killing brave, innocent Americans. The enemy is demonized. Retribution is called for. America enters a war.
If once is chance, twice is coincidence and three times is a pattern, what do you call it when something happens four times in a row like clockwork?
Let's also look at who was in power at that point. We had a president whose goal was to go after Saddam Hussein, even back while he was still campaigning for office. We had an administration that lied, blatantly and repeatedly, to the American public in order to get us into an unwinnable war in Iraq where over four thousand Americans have died, over thirty thousand have been wounded, and over a HUNDRED thousand Iraqis have died as well. This is also an administration that sat on its hands while about eighteen hundred Americans died in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. (This is just to show you the sheer numbers of corpses that are on these peoples' consciences, and yet they are still venomously defiant about having done no wrong.)
We had a government who did all of this in the open. They showed unimaginable indifference to human life and human rights. AND SOME PEOPLE ARE SO FUCKING BLIND THAT THEY THINK IT'S IMPOSSIBLE THAT THESE PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE ALLOWED A MEASLY 3,000 MORE AMERICANS TO DIE ON SEPTEMBER ELEVENTH!?!?
Am I saying there was definitely a conspiracy? No. I've seen plenty of evidence on both sides and all that's clear is that there is reason to be suspicious. I understand that it's very likely still too soon for us to be able to think objectively about this. The emotions are still too raw and powerful. But it's been eight years. All I am asking is that we accept that a conspiracy COULD have happened. To not treat that idea as if it's blasphemy. I don't like it when *anyone* is called crazy just for considering a possibility. Not arrogantly claiming a certainty, but just considering a possibility.
What I'd most like to see is an independent group of skilled, objective scientists and researchers who would go through all the 9/11 conspiracy theories and test whatever there is that can be tested. Do scientific experiments. Check factual sources. All I want is to know which data is reliable enough to BEGIN to form a hypothesis. Not even draw a conclusion; I just want to know where to start.
Because people fucking DIED that day. And I think it's important that we investigate the living shit out of what happened to MAKE DAMN SURE we're right about who did it and why and how. No one should be above suspicion, nothing should be taken for granted, until all the facts have been examined.
That said, Zephon T'sol and I were talking about this earlier and he brought up a very good point: because people did die that day, we owe them respect. I've heard people say that 9/11 truthers are horrible people that 'dishonor the memory of those who died'. That's bullshit. And it's offensive bullshit too. Like I said, there's nothing disrespectful about wanting to fully investigating a crime. I've heard, 'Would you look into the eyes of a grieving 9/11 widow and tell her to her face that she's wrong!?' Yes, I would. Absolutely. The truth is more important than our emotions. But I'd still be respectful, goddammit. I'd say, "I'm sorry I have to put you through this, but I've found evidence that proves beyond a doubt that what we thought we knew about the attacks is wrong. I'm so sorry. I know it's going to be awful to relive those memories, but we have a duty to see justice through."
So, that brings me to the asswipes who think they KNOOOOOWWW exactly what happened. News flash: You don't. I don't, we all don't. After everything I've seen, one thing I know for sure is that there's shitloads of contradictions. And I know that nobody has it all figured out yet. Some conspiracy theorists are decent people who are simply devoted to finding the truth, wherever it may be. Others are no better than creationists: they have their flimsy little pet theories that they obsessively adhere to and they spend all their time grubbing for any tiny fact or inconsistency that might give their crazy-ass idea some credence. I'm sick of this shit. Once and for all time's sake: IT'S NOT FUCKING SCIENCE IF YOU START WITH A CONCLUSION AND TRY TO FORCE THE DATA TO FIT IT!!! And you are being disrespectful to the dead if your real agenda in this is just to bring attention to yourself.
There are three phrases to keep in mind when considering 9/11 conspiracy theories: Occam's Razor, Hanlon's Razor and The Banality Of Evil.
Occam's Razor states roughly, 'the simplest explanation that fits all the facts is usually the correct one'. Wanna know the real reason magicians never reveal their secrets? Because the secrets are always so painfully simple that you'd feel like a jackass if you ever found out about them. Complicated = much more likely to fuck up. So why do some 9/11 theories take place in an alternate reality where the more ridiculously complicated a plan is, the more LIKELY it is to be true!? I've heard shit about remote-controlled robot planes, that all the passengers were actually government workers who secretly deboarded before the crashes, that voice-replication technology was used to make fake phone calls from the planes... One guy on YouTube even said that the planes didn't actually crash, it was real-time CGI video editing effects!! FUUUCK!!! The truth is, you don't NEED any of that shit for a conspiracy. Blood-chilling as it sounds, it's so much simpler, and so much more cost-effective, to simply let thousands of people die for real.
Hanlon's Razor states roughly, 'never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity'. While the Columbine shooting was happening, and in the immediate aftermath, reporters said all sorts of conflicting shit on the air because everyone was simply reporting on what everyone ELSE was reporting, and lots of assumptions and wild guesses were made. Did you know that the only reason hundreds more people didn't die that day is because the homemade bombs Eric and Dylan planted throughout the school never went off? And I'll guarantee that, unless you've done your homework, your perception of the two shooters themselves bears little resemblance to the people they really were. Unfortunately, humans have this damnable tendency to make a first impression, then cling irrationally to it no matter what new evidence comes to light. What's this got to do with 9/11? The same thing happened there. Reporters ran around like decapitated chickens, spouting off assumptions and repeating misinformation like a plague. So if there's inconsistencies in what we know about the tragedy (and there are), maybe it's not the result of some vast evil intelligence network, but simply because reporters tend to exaggerate shit because they're morons.
'Banality of evil' is the idea that villains in real life do not wear capes and have handlebar mustaches. True evil, and usually the worst evil, is usually carried out by calm men sitting around in a quiet room. True evil is usually committed for such unimaginably petty reasons that it's an anticlimax. We'd rather believe that there's some huge evil network of evil that does evil. It's more emotionally satisfying. You wanna know what I think the most plausible 9/11 conspiracy theory is? Okay; remember all the news reports in the months after September where they went on and on about the many, MANY warning signs? They kept asking, "Why didn't someone piece this together?" Well, maybe someone did. Maybe the big conspiracy is simply that someone did piece together the details of the attack, told Bush and Cheney, and they sat back and decided, 'Let's let it happen. We can spin it to get support for going after Saddam'. And that's all it was. Like I said earlier, it's plausible just because this administration later proved, amply, how morally hollow they are. Wanna know another plausible theory? That Larry Silverstein, the owner of the lease on the WTC complex, took out a gigantic insurance policy on the towers, with extra emphasis on terrorism coverage, two weeks before the attacks happened. Then he made the insurance company pay up *twice*, because he insisted that each plane crash counted as a separate attack. And he made BILLIONS of dollars. How is that not a plausible motive? Now, do I know all of this for a fact? Unfortunately, no. But this would be something that could be investigated and proved one way or another. There would be records of this insurance policy. And if a husband takes out a policy on his wife, and a week later she winds up dead, even the most beef-headed cop in the world would arrest the husband on suspicion of murder. Here's a simple, plausible theory, with no robot planes or camera tricks, and it could be investigated easily.
What it all boils down to folks, is that not all conspiracy theories are created equal. Some are worth considering, some are tenuous but still within the realm of possibility, and some are fucking retarded. Don't fall into the trap of thinking they're all the same, and therefore none of them deserve to be investigated objectively.
There's one last thing I want to talk about regarding 9/11. It won't take long. I'm sure your eyes are getting as tired as my typing fingers by now.
One little fact, and here it is: the terrorists won.
They won, because we LET them win.
What is the aim of terrorism? To cause terror. Which means they succeeded. It's a cliche that's been driven into the ground, but 9/11 really *did* change everything. We became a more frightened people.
The news was bad before, but after 9/11 it became 'All Fear; All The Time!!'. Fear of terrorism, fear of Muslims, fear of Iraqis, fear of bombs, fear of chemicals, fear of germs, fear of anthrax, fear of swine flu, fear of bird flu, fear of shark attacks, fear of contaminated water, fear of contaminated food, fear of contaminated toys, fear of missing white girls, fear of black male suspects, fear of pedophiles, fear of video games, fear of non-PC language, fear of oil prices, fear of recession, fear of socialized medicine, fear of Bush, fear of Obama, fear of MOTHER FUCKING EVERYTHING!!!
You know what? I live my life mostly without fear. I disregard pretty much everything the news tells me to be afraid of. And I'm fine. I don't obsess about my health, and even though I'm a fat guy, my cholesterol and blood pressure are both okay. I buy on eBay, torrent movies, and meet people IRL I know from online. I play violent video games. I eat junk food. I jerk off regularly. And I sleep just fine.
Know what I really fear? Our government.
Because stupid, worthless, spineless people allowed the Bush administration to take away wheelbarrowfuls of everyone's human rights, in trade for feeling safer. Notice I said 'feeling' safer. Not really BEING safer. Just feeling that way. That's all most people seem to want. It doesn't matter that airport security has become draconian to the point of almost classifying as rape, and yet it still won't prevent terrorist attacks. When fliers have their freedom taken away from them, they feel safer. When we lose our right to free speech and our right to protest, some people think it's for the best because safety is more important. Say, what was it that Benjamin Franklin said? Oh yeah; "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." I like that that quote's even more badass than I remember it.
We are a more fearful, more restrictive and more anti-intellectual society now. We have let zealous ultrapatriotism flourish and cheered as it trampled everything that made this country worthy of pride. I'm ashamed of America. I hate what it's become.
And if you helped that happen, then shame on you.
If you want to make things better, a good place to start is to think. Openly, constantly, and fearlessly.
Why? Because this is September 11th, 2009. It's been eight damn years since 9/11/01. But it sure doesn't feel like it. We are still allowing this calendar date to control us. We are still letting it have more power over us than it should.
Now for starters, most of my criticism here is labeled at the media; news and entertainment. This is where I'm seeing the most stupidity, and I'd like to believe that average folks are smarter than that. It'll help if I don't get a lot of comments telling me I'm 'insensitive' for talking about this subject in less-than-reverent terms. Sorry; that's what I do. I've laid the smackdown on Christianity, Islam, feminism, the military, skeptics, Michael Bay and even *optimism* for chrissakes. NOTHING is safe from me.
First off, I wanna remind everyone of a fact that many of you will be uncomfortable with: On a global scale, nothing of importance happened on 9/11.
That's true in more ways than one. For starters, we have to face up to the fact that America, as a country, is pretty much a pampered, pudgy rich kid who's never really known just how bad life can get. Sure, we've had a rocky past, but have we ever had a nationwide plague? Mass starvation? Endless, undeclared war waged by the government on its own people? No, we haven't. And don't try to be a smartass by claiming that we have. What happened to us on 9/11 was terrible. No sane person can dispute this. THOUSANDS of people lost their lives for no good reason. But when you compare that to what some other countries go through, sometimes on a daily basis, it's a drop in the bucket.
Here's an example: Three thousand of us died on 9/11, right? However, on March 9th through 10th 1945, American bombers dropped 1665 tons of incendiaries on Japanese cities, including explosives whose purpose was to intentionally deter and kill firefighters (88 of them, to be precise). The total campaign is believed to have killed 672,000 people, and 87.4 percent of the areas bombed were residential zones. In two days, Americans burned to death 224 times the number of people who died on 9/11. The two events are not a perfect comparison, but it does illustrate the fact that humans in general have gotten very good at killing large numbers of their own kind in large chunks. No country is innocent.
Wanna be humbled even more? Try to imagine how many MILLIONS of animals die every day. Also, consider the fact that 99.99% of the species on this planet have no idea that 9/11 even occurred.
Oh, and if you look at the planet's history on a cosmic time scale? Fuck! Our entire civilization's barely been half an eyeblink!
I say this not to be an asshole, but to ask people to put things in perspective. Call it a tragedy, fine. It _absolutely_ is. But when I hear people say that it was the 'worst terrorist attack in history', I cringe. Anyone who says that needs to be whapped with a history book. Worse things have happened to human beings before, and worse things will happen to us in the future. One could even easily claim that the Great Depression caused more total harm to our country than those four airplanes did. As my friend Ether Bunny brilliantly put it, "Just because something's the worst thing to happen to YOU doesn't mean it's the worst thing to happen EVER."
When the media inflates 9/11 beyond what it really was, it not only cheapens what actually happened, but it's usually nothing more than a slimy ploy to tug on people's emotions for ratings. The actual emotions the event caused are painful enough without some cocksucking news anchor reopening that wound at every opportunity just to get you to stay tuned.
I've got more to say on that, but right now I'd like to take a little detour and talk about something else regarding 9/11: the conspiracies.
Right now, some of you are salivating, sure that I'm either gonna chew out people who are wacko enough to think that there is such a conspiracy, or that I'm gonna chew out anyone stupid enough to think there's NOT a conspiracy. Well, fuck you both. You're both assholes.
When I did my Montroversy about skepticism, I said in the comments that Mythbusters has the perfect attitude: test everything. Even if it sounds ridiculous, you test it anyway, because you can't always predict beforehand what will and won't turn out to be true. I have seen people whose intelligence I otherwise respect suddenly turn into closed-minded pricks when it comes to the concept of '9/11 Truth'. I really like both South Park and Penn & Teller's Bullshit, but was pissed off when both those shows completely dismissed all 'truthers' as crazy people. South Park even admitted that ONE IN FOUR PEOPLE think there was some kind of conspiracy. When a full quarter of the population suspects something, and you try to make that go away by calling them all crazy, then you are a shithead of unimaginable magnitude.
I'm not going to get into debating the evidence. Let me make that even clearer: I AM NOT GOING TO GET INTO DEBATING THE EVIDENCE. This is long enough already, and it'll kill my finger muscles if I even try. But what I am going to do now is simply show why the idea of a conspiracy is at least possible. Maybe even probable.
For starters, let's take in the wider picture of American history. When World War I was beginning (Oh Christ, a Zero Wing reference...), the Germans torpedoed the ocean liner Lusitania, killing over a thousand passengers. This made lots of other countries pissed off at Germany, and according to Wikipedia, "was instrumental in bringing the United States into World War I". But things weren't so simple. Germany had said that the British were using cruise ships to carry munitions to their soldiers; essentially turning the passengers into human shields. The Germans said they would fire on any ship that entered a certain area, and even took out a full-page newspaper ad to explicitly warn passengers of the Lusitania that they would be shot at!! And yes, the ship was carrying shitloads of ammunition and had undergone renovations to turn it into a half-cruiser, half-battleship. But instead of looking at this as the Germans firing upon an enemy ship under the normal rules of warfare, and after giving ample warning too, we Americans called it a cowardly, sneaky act.
Skip forward to World War II. What was the event that galvanized support for entering the war then? The Japanese sneak attack on Pearl Harbor. Only it wasn't a sneak attack at all. At best you could say that it was a situation where everyone knew an attack was imminent, but didn't know the actual location. At worst, you could say that the American government intentionally ignored warnings because public sentiment was very much against joining the war, and they knew an attack would change people's minds. It's important to realize that most of the worst Nazi atrocities were not known about in America until after, or late into, the war. There was even open Nazi sympathy in America. And after WWI, Americans had no desire to get into another huge conflict. So maybe it was right to allow the attack, letting hundreds die so that millions would be spared the cruelties of the Third Reich. Maybe. I can't say for sure. But what is clear is that the popular perception of the Pearl Harbor attack does not match the reality.
Then we come to Vietnam. Christ, in high school American history I learned that the Gulf Of Tonkin incident, the catalyst for America entering the war, never happened at all and was a complete lie right from the beginning. There's no argument here: it's been proven fully enough to be in the freakin' textbooks. Which usually do everything possible to paint America as the messiah of the world (at least the ones I've seen).
So now we're back at 9/11. Foreigners attack in a sneaky, cowardly way, killing brave, innocent Americans. The enemy is demonized. Retribution is called for. America enters a war.
If once is chance, twice is coincidence and three times is a pattern, what do you call it when something happens four times in a row like clockwork?
Let's also look at who was in power at that point. We had a president whose goal was to go after Saddam Hussein, even back while he was still campaigning for office. We had an administration that lied, blatantly and repeatedly, to the American public in order to get us into an unwinnable war in Iraq where over four thousand Americans have died, over thirty thousand have been wounded, and over a HUNDRED thousand Iraqis have died as well. This is also an administration that sat on its hands while about eighteen hundred Americans died in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. (This is just to show you the sheer numbers of corpses that are on these peoples' consciences, and yet they are still venomously defiant about having done no wrong.)
We had a government who did all of this in the open. They showed unimaginable indifference to human life and human rights. AND SOME PEOPLE ARE SO FUCKING BLIND THAT THEY THINK IT'S IMPOSSIBLE THAT THESE PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE ALLOWED A MEASLY 3,000 MORE AMERICANS TO DIE ON SEPTEMBER ELEVENTH!?!?
Am I saying there was definitely a conspiracy? No. I've seen plenty of evidence on both sides and all that's clear is that there is reason to be suspicious. I understand that it's very likely still too soon for us to be able to think objectively about this. The emotions are still too raw and powerful. But it's been eight years. All I am asking is that we accept that a conspiracy COULD have happened. To not treat that idea as if it's blasphemy. I don't like it when *anyone* is called crazy just for considering a possibility. Not arrogantly claiming a certainty, but just considering a possibility.
What I'd most like to see is an independent group of skilled, objective scientists and researchers who would go through all the 9/11 conspiracy theories and test whatever there is that can be tested. Do scientific experiments. Check factual sources. All I want is to know which data is reliable enough to BEGIN to form a hypothesis. Not even draw a conclusion; I just want to know where to start.
Because people fucking DIED that day. And I think it's important that we investigate the living shit out of what happened to MAKE DAMN SURE we're right about who did it and why and how. No one should be above suspicion, nothing should be taken for granted, until all the facts have been examined.
That said, Zephon T'sol and I were talking about this earlier and he brought up a very good point: because people did die that day, we owe them respect. I've heard people say that 9/11 truthers are horrible people that 'dishonor the memory of those who died'. That's bullshit. And it's offensive bullshit too. Like I said, there's nothing disrespectful about wanting to fully investigating a crime. I've heard, 'Would you look into the eyes of a grieving 9/11 widow and tell her to her face that she's wrong!?' Yes, I would. Absolutely. The truth is more important than our emotions. But I'd still be respectful, goddammit. I'd say, "I'm sorry I have to put you through this, but I've found evidence that proves beyond a doubt that what we thought we knew about the attacks is wrong. I'm so sorry. I know it's going to be awful to relive those memories, but we have a duty to see justice through."
So, that brings me to the asswipes who think they KNOOOOOWWW exactly what happened. News flash: You don't. I don't, we all don't. After everything I've seen, one thing I know for sure is that there's shitloads of contradictions. And I know that nobody has it all figured out yet. Some conspiracy theorists are decent people who are simply devoted to finding the truth, wherever it may be. Others are no better than creationists: they have their flimsy little pet theories that they obsessively adhere to and they spend all their time grubbing for any tiny fact or inconsistency that might give their crazy-ass idea some credence. I'm sick of this shit. Once and for all time's sake: IT'S NOT FUCKING SCIENCE IF YOU START WITH A CONCLUSION AND TRY TO FORCE THE DATA TO FIT IT!!! And you are being disrespectful to the dead if your real agenda in this is just to bring attention to yourself.
There are three phrases to keep in mind when considering 9/11 conspiracy theories: Occam's Razor, Hanlon's Razor and The Banality Of Evil.
Occam's Razor states roughly, 'the simplest explanation that fits all the facts is usually the correct one'. Wanna know the real reason magicians never reveal their secrets? Because the secrets are always so painfully simple that you'd feel like a jackass if you ever found out about them. Complicated = much more likely to fuck up. So why do some 9/11 theories take place in an alternate reality where the more ridiculously complicated a plan is, the more LIKELY it is to be true!? I've heard shit about remote-controlled robot planes, that all the passengers were actually government workers who secretly deboarded before the crashes, that voice-replication technology was used to make fake phone calls from the planes... One guy on YouTube even said that the planes didn't actually crash, it was real-time CGI video editing effects!! FUUUCK!!! The truth is, you don't NEED any of that shit for a conspiracy. Blood-chilling as it sounds, it's so much simpler, and so much more cost-effective, to simply let thousands of people die for real.
Hanlon's Razor states roughly, 'never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity'. While the Columbine shooting was happening, and in the immediate aftermath, reporters said all sorts of conflicting shit on the air because everyone was simply reporting on what everyone ELSE was reporting, and lots of assumptions and wild guesses were made. Did you know that the only reason hundreds more people didn't die that day is because the homemade bombs Eric and Dylan planted throughout the school never went off? And I'll guarantee that, unless you've done your homework, your perception of the two shooters themselves bears little resemblance to the people they really were. Unfortunately, humans have this damnable tendency to make a first impression, then cling irrationally to it no matter what new evidence comes to light. What's this got to do with 9/11? The same thing happened there. Reporters ran around like decapitated chickens, spouting off assumptions and repeating misinformation like a plague. So if there's inconsistencies in what we know about the tragedy (and there are), maybe it's not the result of some vast evil intelligence network, but simply because reporters tend to exaggerate shit because they're morons.
'Banality of evil' is the idea that villains in real life do not wear capes and have handlebar mustaches. True evil, and usually the worst evil, is usually carried out by calm men sitting around in a quiet room. True evil is usually committed for such unimaginably petty reasons that it's an anticlimax. We'd rather believe that there's some huge evil network of evil that does evil. It's more emotionally satisfying. You wanna know what I think the most plausible 9/11 conspiracy theory is? Okay; remember all the news reports in the months after September where they went on and on about the many, MANY warning signs? They kept asking, "Why didn't someone piece this together?" Well, maybe someone did. Maybe the big conspiracy is simply that someone did piece together the details of the attack, told Bush and Cheney, and they sat back and decided, 'Let's let it happen. We can spin it to get support for going after Saddam'. And that's all it was. Like I said earlier, it's plausible just because this administration later proved, amply, how morally hollow they are. Wanna know another plausible theory? That Larry Silverstein, the owner of the lease on the WTC complex, took out a gigantic insurance policy on the towers, with extra emphasis on terrorism coverage, two weeks before the attacks happened. Then he made the insurance company pay up *twice*, because he insisted that each plane crash counted as a separate attack. And he made BILLIONS of dollars. How is that not a plausible motive? Now, do I know all of this for a fact? Unfortunately, no. But this would be something that could be investigated and proved one way or another. There would be records of this insurance policy. And if a husband takes out a policy on his wife, and a week later she winds up dead, even the most beef-headed cop in the world would arrest the husband on suspicion of murder. Here's a simple, plausible theory, with no robot planes or camera tricks, and it could be investigated easily.
What it all boils down to folks, is that not all conspiracy theories are created equal. Some are worth considering, some are tenuous but still within the realm of possibility, and some are fucking retarded. Don't fall into the trap of thinking they're all the same, and therefore none of them deserve to be investigated objectively.
There's one last thing I want to talk about regarding 9/11. It won't take long. I'm sure your eyes are getting as tired as my typing fingers by now.
One little fact, and here it is: the terrorists won.
They won, because we LET them win.
What is the aim of terrorism? To cause terror. Which means they succeeded. It's a cliche that's been driven into the ground, but 9/11 really *did* change everything. We became a more frightened people.
The news was bad before, but after 9/11 it became 'All Fear; All The Time!!'. Fear of terrorism, fear of Muslims, fear of Iraqis, fear of bombs, fear of chemicals, fear of germs, fear of anthrax, fear of swine flu, fear of bird flu, fear of shark attacks, fear of contaminated water, fear of contaminated food, fear of contaminated toys, fear of missing white girls, fear of black male suspects, fear of pedophiles, fear of video games, fear of non-PC language, fear of oil prices, fear of recession, fear of socialized medicine, fear of Bush, fear of Obama, fear of MOTHER FUCKING EVERYTHING!!!
You know what? I live my life mostly without fear. I disregard pretty much everything the news tells me to be afraid of. And I'm fine. I don't obsess about my health, and even though I'm a fat guy, my cholesterol and blood pressure are both okay. I buy on eBay, torrent movies, and meet people IRL I know from online. I play violent video games. I eat junk food. I jerk off regularly. And I sleep just fine.
Know what I really fear? Our government.
Because stupid, worthless, spineless people allowed the Bush administration to take away wheelbarrowfuls of everyone's human rights, in trade for feeling safer. Notice I said 'feeling' safer. Not really BEING safer. Just feeling that way. That's all most people seem to want. It doesn't matter that airport security has become draconian to the point of almost classifying as rape, and yet it still won't prevent terrorist attacks. When fliers have their freedom taken away from them, they feel safer. When we lose our right to free speech and our right to protest, some people think it's for the best because safety is more important. Say, what was it that Benjamin Franklin said? Oh yeah; "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." I like that that quote's even more badass than I remember it.
We are a more fearful, more restrictive and more anti-intellectual society now. We have let zealous ultrapatriotism flourish and cheered as it trampled everything that made this country worthy of pride. I'm ashamed of America. I hate what it's become.
And if you helped that happen, then shame on you.
If you want to make things better, a good place to start is to think. Openly, constantly, and fearlessly.
Also, hail to the man who thinks for himself, id suggest we make you president but somehow i doubt youd want the job, i know i sure as fucks sake don't want it or any political position for that mater.
Hence, why it should be me. Because I'm perfect. ;)
there is a greater degree of argument for this way of thinking but it requires a more abstract mindset then i have to put it into words......your welcome to try if you want
But it does remind me of most Americans' quest for 'safety'. You can chase perfection and safety forever, and you'll never have them. People need to be more accepting of the fact that life is neither perfect nor completely safe and never will be.
Now if you excuse me, I have to go buy terrorism insurance for my computer.
I think I'll get some terrorism insurance on Michael Bay.
BTW, I just remembered something that 2 the Ranting Gryphon mentioned: today, more than any other day, is the safest day to go on an airplane in America, and the wait will be shorter. Why? Because everyone else is too damn scared that terrorists will pop out of their bags of peanuts to go on planes.
If you get THAT reference, you win a blowjob sandwich.
But I do know that you can't fix the car without a whole lotta milk-a...
Goddamit you just broke my brain forever. I can't help but picture that literally, like real, live ducks with swastika armbands 'n stuff.
But you're right, it's a long time ago and we already have a day to remember tragedy, two months from now, November 11th, Rememberance Day. The day we ended World War 2. Though, there is a reason to do it today that's clear even here in Sarnia. Military Recruitment. There's a military ship visiting our city right now, giving tours and such, and they were saying on the radio how excited they were that they got so many people to sign up for the Canadian navy after touring the ship. They're embarking now, and the major citizens and names of our community are out at the international flag crossing giving speeches and such as they sail by. They've asked us to go down to the waterfront and wear all red and white and wave flags, but I have to go to voulenteer at the Goodwill.
Actually, right now! XD
Really? 3000's the number I always hear thrown around. Actually, I've heard it was slightly less.
>It wasn't 6000 black people nobody cares about from a city many religious wackos always wanted smited anyways,
OH SNAP!!! That was definitely a good one.
>I doubt anybody is more than two degrees of seperation away from the disaster. It's very personal.
True, but i repeat Ether's quote: "Just because something's the worst thing to happen to YOU doesn't mean it's the worst thing to happen EVER." I'm not saying 9/11 didn't affect lots and lots of people; I'm saying we let it impact us more than we should. We do it because we give America more importance than it really deserves, so something bad happening to America is given more attention than it deserves as well. And people are hurting themselves. If you've been attacked, personally, one of the least-healthy ways to react is to dwell on it day and night.
>and they were saying on the radio how excited they were that they got so many people to sign up for the Canadian navy after touring the ship.
[SNARK MODE ENGAGED]
...starting to run out of fresh, tight assholes, were they?
<rimshot>
>They've asked us to go down to the waterfront and wear all red and white and wave flags, but I have to go to voulenteer at the Goodwill.
Congratulations: you've chosen the option that will actually do some tangible good. ;)
All I ever here is 6000. Though, maybe that's everyone who died rather than just the people at the twin towers? People tend to forget the Pentagon was also hit. But, I thought there were a lot less casualties there as well.
Well, I meant in the sense of thinking we're #1 and no culture is as important as ours and we should be the world's policeman and all that jazz.
>All I ever here is 6000. Though, maybe that's everyone who died rather than just the people at the twin towers? People tend to forget the Pentagon was also hit. But, I thought there were a lot less casualties there as well.
According to Wikipedia, it's 2,994, for everyone who died in all the attacks. Dunno where 6000 came from.
One more of the points behind why so many people think there was something fishy about the whole thing.
Please.
Being military, I've seen plenty of these nutters...too many. I'm not saying supporting our country is bad, but there is definitely a fine line between quiet, noble respect and balls-to-the-wall shrieking rabidness. One of my other friends is like this and while I understand his sentiment, his journal today was pretty much the exact opposite of this one, even going so far as to say that eight years ago, and I quote, "the world stood still".
NO it fucking did NOT. Yes it hurt here and yes, our little life came to a whirling halt, but the rest of the world gave as much thought as WE did for the London bombings...or the suicide bombers...or the other people who die for no real good reason.
I don't see 9/11 as anything more than what it was/is/always has been: proof of evil, from both inside and outside of our walls. And yes there were heroes. Yes, we should honor them...but we should also let it go and move on. We should move our lives forward not in fear but in hope that things will be better. We should TRY to make our lives good, doing what we can not because we fear we will lose something, but because we want a better existence for ourselves. I'm leaving the military in two weeks for that EXACT reason; I'm tired of living in fear of my superiors making my life a living hell because they *can*. I'm leaving so I can better myself and provide for those I love.
Hope is what we need, not fear. Not blind hope of what could be, but solid hope of what IS and what WILL be.
You forgot the "...FUCK YEAH!" ;)
>I'm not saying supporting our country is bad, but there is definitely a fine line between quiet, noble respect and balls-to-the-wall shrieking rabidness.
There's a vast difference between many Americans' definition of 'patriotism vs. actually supporting our country. I wish we could ressurect the founding fathers so they could sit these RedWhiteAndButtholes down and teach them that, in a democracy, people own the government, not the other way around. They serve US. And if we don't like what they're doing, it's our patriotic duty to stand up and complain our asses off. DISSENT = PATRIOTISM.
>One of my other friends is like this and while I understand his sentiment, his journal today was pretty much the exact opposite of this one, even going so far as to say that eight years ago, and I quote, "the world stood still".
<facepalm> Oh fucking Christballs...
>NO it fucking did NOT. Yes it hurt here and yes, our little life came to a whirling halt, but the rest of the world gave as much thought as WE did for the London bombings...or the suicide bombers...or the other people who die for no real good reason.
Excellent comparison. I've seen footage of terrorist attacks in other countries, and had about the same level of emotional reaction as 9/11. "Wow... That is awful. Those poor people." And then I ate breakfast. That doesn't mean I'm insensitive, it just means that I don't allow every bad thing in the world to determine how I'm going to live my day-to-day life.
>I don't see 9/11 as anything more than what it was/is/always has been: proof of evil, from both inside and outside of our walls.
Nicely said.
>And yes there were heroes. Yes, we should honor them...but we should also let it go and move on.
You know... something just occurred to me. I'd mind the yearly rehashes of 9/11 a lot less if the focus was on honoring the heroes. That, I could get on board with. Not so much this flag-waving, nausea-inducing country-fucking PatrioFest garbage. I'm not going to feel a certain way just because the teevee tells me too, and I resent even being told I should.
>Hope is what we need, not fear. Not blind hope of what could be, but solid hope of what IS and what WILL be.
<applause> What else could I say?
YOU ESSAY!
And thank you!
Conspiracies are real and have happened. There was the suspicions of America having a black ops squad, which was proven true after an unsuccessful attempt of America trying to assassinate Castro. There was, of course, the conspiracies of Area 51 - which was true, they were hiding stuff, just not aliens. Some of the earlier UFO sightings ware boomerang shaped, which was probably the aircraft being tested and designed by the military at the time. There's probably others. So, yes, conspiracies can be true. I just don't believe that any of the common theories of 9/11 are true.
A very good movie about this subject is Conspiracy Theory, starring Mel Gibson. In this movie, Mel Gibson is your conspiracy theorist stereotype. Believes anything and everything, totally crazy. But, it turns out one of his theories are true and the government locks him up. However, that's not entirely the point. This movie actually serves as a lesson to me. Even though one theory was true, was it worth it? He was completely insane and the reason is simple. Once you pick and choose what you want to believe what a history book says, there's no reason you can't pick and choose to believe anything you want at all. All history becomes suspect. There's nothing you can truly believe in and nothing holding you to reality. Basically, I'd rather believe the lies in a history, at least it makes sense. It's based on something. I can't go insane believing in a history book. I could explain more, but I think you get the basic idea.
Just a last tidbit, and if I am wrong, correct me (I really love history, so I'd love to learn more if I really am): as far as I know, no major country (I don't know about *any* country) has ever historically been known to act out on a fake terrorist attack on itself simply to instigate a war with a foreign country.
No one's said the buildings were designed to collapse, but some, *some* of the controlled demolition theories I've heard have enough plausible-sounding theory behind them to be worth looking into, I think. Especially WTC7. I've _never_ heard a good explanation of how it could have collapsed the way the official story says it did. It's one of those things that really sticks out for me.
>If there is a conspiracy, then it would have nothing to do with those things. It'd be retarded for a government to try to blow up buildings in a country where it's everyone's free right to go to college and anyone and everyone can study architecture, physics, chemistry, etc., so there's that stuff. If there would be a conspiracy, it'd be about something no one could know about.
Not necessarily. Most people *don't* know much about architecture, chemistry, etc. And also, all you really would have to do to get away with a conspiracy like this is create a social climate where raising the very idea of a conspiracy is considered horribly unpatriotic. You attach a stigma to the very idea, and then it doesn't matter how blatant or bungled the conspiracy was. (You'll notice there's not the same cries of 'anti-American' when people say the moon landings are faked. They're called nuts, but not unpatriotic.)
>I just don't believe that any of the common theories of 9/11 are true.
Personally, I think the Mexicans did it. ;)
>Once you pick and choose what you want to believe what a history book says, there's no reason you can't pick and choose to believe anything you want at all. All history becomes suspect. There's nothing you can truly believe in and nothing holding you to reality.
A VERY EXCELLENT POINT. People who *live* for their pet conspiracy theories have a way to always be right. It's simple; if a piece of evidence proves them wrong, then it's deliberate misinformation by the conspirators. So they can handwave anything that might be able to bring them back to reality. It's a self-feeding mental illness, and it's sad, really. (Religious people can fall into this trap too.)
>Just a last tidbit, and if I am wrong, correct me (I really love history, so I'd love to learn more if I really am): as far as I know, no major country (I don't know about *any* country) has ever historically been known to act out on a fake terrorist attack on itself simply to instigate a war with a foreign country.
Actually... I can't remember the name of it (If anyone can help me out, I'd appreciate it), but there was a memo written by someone in the United States military during our feud with Cuba, suggesting that we could create a reason to attack Cuba by staging fake terrorist attacks on American targets and claiming they were responsible. Thankfully, the memo was thrown out. But the ideas in it are *eerily* close to what some people say happened on 9/11. Close enough to at least investigate further. If a person or an organization draw up a plan to, for instance, blow up a hospital, and then years later a hospital blows up in a way that's extremely similar to that plan, then it's common sense to check it out.
I'll see if I can Google up the Cuba fake terrorist memo or find it on Wikipedia, that's pretty interesting and I've never heard of it.
Also, double thanks for the Northwoods thing. I'll admit it doesn't prove anything about 9/11, but the fact of its existence ought to cast doubt on terrorist attacks in America for decades to come. Kind of like, if a cop is found to have cooked evidence to force convictions of innocent people, then all of his arrests become suspect, and rightly so. That the Northwoods plan could even be *suggested* is so treasonous I can't even fucking believe it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kSq.....eature=related Already showed you, Alex, but it's for anyone else who wants to see a well-done video of the North Tower collapsing, debris hitting Tower 7, how much damage it actually caused and a very good video of it collapsing. The angle is directly behind the tower, not a sort of angled side view like most videos are.
btw my calendar says today is "Patriot Day" >>; great, now we have a holiday that reminds me of the Patriot Act which took away our right to privacy ><;
Steve Irwin was a conspiracy.
Not his death. The man himself.
Perhaps...
*hat tip*
*Does not have a hat and ends up ripping off his scalp instead*
Note to self: Get hat.
We frequently become angry, and rightly so, at the atrocities committed by the governments of powerful countries. what we tend not to do is consider just how much thought, and how much planning is required to commit such acts. What I'm getting at is that if an entity as powerful as the US Government and with access to the kind of resources they have decided to plan an event like 9/11, we would not know a damn thing. They easily have the ability to plan, slowly and meticulously, each and every detail, cross-check repeatedly, and wipe their tracks from the face of the earth.
Finally, speaking of Occam's Razor, which is simpler? A long, incredibly costly planning process and the expense of the hit to the economy and lost human life, or putting a small amount of incredibly believable spin on an event that captured the entire country's attention on its own?
Ah, but is it even simpler to think that maybe the government simply knew and did nothing? That wouldn't require any complex planning. The info comes in from scattered departments that don't communicate well with each other anyway, a handful of people read all the reports, put it together and inform the president, then he discusses it with his tight-knit, ultra-secretive inner circle, and the decision is made to do diddley squat. If nothing else, given what Richard Clarke said about how often he tried to get the president to listen to him about terrorism, we have an administration who let the attacks happen through sheer incompetence. Either way, I am sure the Bush administration bears some responsibility for what happened that day.
To simplify, my position is thus:
The Bush administration did not have information about the attacks in a time frame which allowed for prevention.
In so doing, the Bush administration failed its duty as a protector.
Further, the Bush administration used the deaths of thousands of citizens to further its own political agenda.
"Who could have foreseen?"
"Any idiot with a brain?"
I believe they knew something before it happened, I believe they lied to us about specifics of what happened, and I believe very strongly that the government was NOT entirely uninvolved. Beyond that, I don't know any more than anyone else, so who knows what's right and what isn't.
But don't overthink it and give them credit for some masterminded plot. You don't have to be careful or well-planned when the people who would be questioning you are as stupid as most of the american public. It really isn't difficult at all to get people to believe whatever you want them to believe, despite evidence to the contrary.
And that applies to both the "it happened exactly how they say it happened" people and the extreme conspiracy theory fans.
I don't account this as much to sensibility and rationality as I do account it to apathy.
"Things could be better. Let's try for that."
"Naw, things are fine just as they are. Besides, it's haaaard."
One phrase I absolutely detest is, "Leave well enough alone."
"Leave well enough alone" has its place, but yeah, it seems it's never used when it SHOULD be, but is used all too often when things are not close to "well enough" except for the person tossing that line out there.
Wow, I hadn't heard that one.
Damn.
I love how when god does something which would instantly and irrevocably qualify a human as a thoroughly >EVIL< being, he gets a complete pass for it and is still supposed to be a loving fatherly god. Like, if they actually >said< "God is fickle and mercurious, and acts on whatever whim he has at the time, so be afraid and do what he says or he might kill you for a laugh" then it'd be at least a little different.
But "Oh, yeah, God killed every first-born in Egypt to punish pharoah" or "God told that guy to kill his son JUST to test his loyalty" or the whole story of Job, fuck me sideways, but he's still supposed to be loving and looking out for our best interests... wtf.
*A kid prays to God to let his best friend live after an accident. Consequently, God kills off the boy's mom, dad and little sister.
*It's revealed that Tak's voodoomagicwhatever would eventually fizzle out, but God wants him destroyed nonetheless because Tak's existence is an *affront* to him.
*Tak controls animals and just picking up a statue of him makes two characters suddenly fuck. Sounds like a much more fun guy.
King also portrayed God as uncaring of how many lives he destroys in The Stand, another one that, while much better written, made me uncomfortable because it's hard to see how God's really a better choice to side with then the Devil.
Honestly, when the bombing happened, I was in high school. My first thought was "What the hell are the Twin Towers?"
It didn't affect me. Everybody else around me seemed pissed-off. I really couldn't find it in me to care all that much. Sure, I felt bad for those that did die and their families, but seriously, I am not one to be made feel obligated to behave in such a manner towards one event that is minuscule in comparison to many other events in our own country which put such to shame.
I was pissed off myself, but not until after everybody started to jump down my throat for voicing how much I really did not give a shit. I wasn't pissed off at the event. Saddened, yes. I was pissed off at everybody else, for the way they acted and how they jumped on me because I did not share the same opinion of how tragic this really was.
In my mind, Bush was just looking for a war to boost his popularity and to get more money. Well, he got his wish, and I am forever grateful that the effects were in complete and absolute contradiction with the desired results. My he die of gonorrhea of the mouth.
Huzzah!
>I was pissed off myself, but not until after everybody started to jump down my throat for voicing how much I really did not give a shit. I wasn't pissed off at the event. Saddened, yes. I was pissed off at everybody else, for the way they acted and how they jumped on me because I did not share the same opinion of how tragic this really was.
A lot of the anger in this journal comes from other people telling me how I *ought* to feel about 9/11, so I definitely empathize. It occurs to me that maybe anger was the default reaction for so many people because anger is easier than grief. Also, we equate anger with manliness. 'Don't be a wimp and cry about it; go out there and kick the shit outta some towelhead! U.S.A.!! U.S.A.!!!'
>In my mind, Bush was just looking for a war to boost his popularity and to get more money. Well, he got his wish, and I am forever grateful that the effects were in complete and absolute contradiction with the desired results. My he die of gonorrhea of the mouth.
I dunno; him being eaten alive by fire ants might be more fun to watch.
Now on to the main subject. I HATE 9/11. Not just for the horrable event that occured. But for the MORBID OBSESSION it has become. I'm from manhatten and I am SO sick of hearing about it this. I understand how horrorable the event and losses are. Bit it's been 8 years. It's time to move on!
You make a good point my friend. I'm to tired right now to continue with my arguement. I'm letting it go for now.
ME TOO! ^__^
>Now on to the main subject. I HATE 9/11. Not just for the horrable event that occured. But for the MORBID OBSESSION it has become. I'm from manhatten and I am SO sick of hearing about it this. I understand how horrorable the event and losses are. Bit it's been 8 years. It's time to move on!
Everyone grieves differently, but yeah; grief is a process that's supposed to END at some point. I'm not gonna tell any individual how they should feel about it, becuse I resent that myself. But I know that when something bad happens, one of the most unhealthy things you can do is dwell on it constantly. It's like, if you have a scab, what do they always say? "Don't pick at it or it'll never heal!" Or if it does heal, it makes this gargantuan ugly red spot that you'll have forever. Same thing happens when something wounds our minds. Let it heal; give it time and rest.
Maybe it's because so much of what happened that day still feels fresh to me. I didn't know anyone personally who was hurt or killed, but I live in Northern Virginia, a few miles from the Pentagon. On 9-11, I was outside in gym class when the Pentagon was hit. We heard the explosion and saw the smoke, although we didn't know what it was until later. In the days that followed, the skies were empty except for fighter jets occassionally screaming overhead on patrol.
What I think I'm trying to say is that I'm too emotionally involved to be able to easily look at it rationally. Absolutely it was a tragedy, and absolutely it was important, but more than that, it got to me. I know personal isn't the same thing as important, but that doesn't mean it's not important to me.
Calming down a bit and looking through it again, I think this statement is the one that itches me the most: "On a global scale, nothing of importance happened on 9/11," especially since you later say "but 9/11 really *did* change everything." It's true that 9/11 had absolutely no effect on most of the 6 billion or so people crawling across the face of the Earth, but it set into motion a chain of events that have left scars everywhere. Like it or not, the USA is effectively one of the most powerful countries in the world. When something occurs to severely shake the worldview of the people of a nation that powerful, there will be consequences. For better of for worse (so far mostly for worse it often seems), places like Afghanistan and Iraq will never be the same again in part because of what happened on 9/11. Three thousand people is not a lot (about .00001% of the US population of 300 million), but how many thousands more have died because of actions that were caused at least in part by 9/11? If that's not important on a global scale, then what is? When does a single day become "important on a global scale"?
Switching gears, most of the conspiracy theories I've heard have been of the so-ridiculous-they-can-be-dismissed-right-away variety (i.e. they weren't planes, they were cruise missiles). The scenario you present, and the way you present it, certainly seems plausible: 9/11 happened because nobody took any action to stop it. Maybe somebody at the top wanted it to happen, but I doubt the US government had an active role in perpetrating the attacks.
I have had that happen to me, and I want to congratulate you for trying to understand it rather than walking away from it. Years ago, I remember reading this really philosophy heavy story online and it disturbed me to the point where I couldn't get to sleep that night. So I deleted it from my hard drive. But the more I thought about it, I realized that was cowardly. So, I found it again and then wrote a story of my own, rebutting it. When I did, I was not only able to understand why the guy's philosophy had irked me so much, but in writing my rebuttal, it crystalized my own views and I even realized some new things about my beliefs I hadn't been able to articulate before. So, yeah, anytime something messes with your head, go towards it instead of away.
>What I think I'm trying to say is that I'm too emotionally involved to be able to easily look at it rationally. Absolutely it was a tragedy, and absolutely it was important, but more than that, it got to me. I know personal isn't the same thing as important, but that doesn't mean it's not important to me.
That's okay. I understand that this journal would have a totally different impact on a casual reader than, say, someone whose loved one had been on one of the planes. I know emotions do not listen to reason; they're there no matter what we do. So I respect your closeness to the even, and I *doubly* respect your trying to be intellectual about it regardless.
>Calming down a bit and looking through it again, I think this statement is the one that itches me the most: "On a global scale, nothing of importance happened on 9/11," especially since you later say "but 9/11 really *did* change everything." It's true that 9/11 had absolutely no effect on most of the 6 billion or so people crawling across the face of the Earth, but it set into motion a chain of events that have left scars everywhere. Like it or not, the USA is effectively one of the most powerful countries in the world. When something occurs to severely shake the worldview of the people of a nation that powerful, there will be consequences. For better of for worse (so far mostly for worse it often seems), places like Afghanistan and Iraq will never be the same again in part because of what happened on 9/11. Three thousand people is not a lot (about .00001% of the US population of 300 million), but how many thousands more have died because of actions that were caused at least in part by 9/11? If that's not important on a global scale, then what is? When does a single day become "important on a global scale"?
That is a very, very good point, and one I _should_ have realized. I'll admit, the whole "nothing of importance happened" section was not meant to be taken completely literally. It was an exaggeration meant only to snap people out of the idea, like I'd said, that this was somehow the worst terrorist act ever. I was angry at the insinuation that, because terrorists targeted *America* this time, that somehow made it worse than if they'd picked another country. Nationalism, I do not like. I'm sure the Earth itself barely 'felt' the towers fall, but obviously it's had incredible repercussions in many different countries.
>Switching gears, most of the conspiracy theories I've heard have been of the so-ridiculous-they-can-be-dismissed-right-away variety (i.e. they weren't planes, they were cruise missiles). The scenario you present, and the way you present it, certainly seems plausible: 9/11 happened because nobody took any action to stop it. Maybe somebody at the top wanted it to happen, but I doubt the US government had an active role in perpetrating the attacks.
I don't firmly believe _anything_, really. I've seen too much evidence on all sorts of sides for me to even lean in one direction. So I'm pretty much in a 'wait and see' mindset. Either the truth will come out several decades from now or it'll forever be mired in uncertainty. Obviously, I'd rather there NOT be a conspiracy, because the official story is heartbreaking enough. But I guess what it really comes down to for me is that, if it turns out there was a conspiracy, I won't be surprised. Almost any outcome wouldn't surprise me at this point.
The thing that pisses me off most about 9/11 is how we reacted to it. This may sound callous, but one thing 9/11 definitely was was an opportunity. The leader of our nation had a moment when we were all hurting, because it was a national tragedy. We were upset, we were shocked, and alot of us would have rallied around anything at that moment.
He SHOULD have rallied us around something like alternative fuels. He COULD have actually, REALLY broken our dependence on foreign oil powers. He COULD have brought us into a new age of clean energy, and we would have supported it, and it would have really HELPED us.
Instead, he basically said "let's just hit them back harder, that'll REALLY make things better."
And alot of our country rallied around that. Consequently, we created a terrorist state. Great idea, fuckers.
I was with some of my music theory buddies, and they started talking about 9/11, and I just wanted to scream "SO FUCKING WHAT?! SEEN WHERE WE ARE NOW?! LOTS OF PEOPLE DIED, TOO FUCKING BAD, WE NOW HAVE BIGGER ISSUES!" However, one of my friends' mothers only survived because she took a sick day that day by coincidence. I didn't feel comfortable saying anything against it.
Had she mentioned anything about "the grace of god" in relation to her mother's continued existence, however, I would have had to angrily protest. ;)
DEFINITE AGREEMENT. We had a chance to be better. It could have been another "Ask not what your country can do for you..." moments. Instead, we went with the gut reaction. The caveman reaction. A small-minded, evil, petty man appealed to our worst instincts, and we wasted a chance to better ourselves. (I hope, though, that a lot of people did make use of that chance in their personal lives.)
>Had she mentioned anything about "the grace of god" in relation to her mother's continued existence, however, I would have had to angrily protest. ;)
I would have snidely asked exactly why God chose not to spare the other 2000+ people in the towers. I can't fathom how a few surviving when many die could be a sign of a just and loving God. More like there were a few ants that happened to get away before he could turn the magnifying glass on them too.
This reminds me: what do you think of how Obama's doing so far?
Oh gawd, I can picture him doing that _literally_...
>This reminds me: what do you think of how Obama's doing so far?
I think he's trying, and I think he's frustrated. It seems like people elected him because they wanted change, and now he has to deal with the fact that it seems people don't want *that* much change after all. Certainly not senators and congressmen. It looks like they're trying to hack away at his health care reform bill until it's entirely toothless. On the whole, I can't really say. It's too soon. Give it a year and depending on how the economy's going then, I'll let you know. So far though, it does seem like it's slowly improving, as he said it would. Let's just hope it's sustainable.
Already fucking happened.
http://www.ccadp.org/bushkills.htm
FUCK!!!!!
How the hell do you satirize someone who's so cartoonishly EVIL that nothing you come up with can go beyond the reality!?
If the country of the USA is mostly christian and christians believe in forgiveness, why did the country go outside of its boundaries to seek revenge?
Wow, they really are all worthless!
It reminds me of an episode of Star Trek Voyager where The Doctor was in a moral dilemma over whether or not to make use of medical research from another doctor who'd made his discoveries through torturous experiments on unwilling people. If the intentions are corrupt, does that permanently stain the results, even if they seem good? I think so. I'm aware that Leni Reifenstahl had talent, but she used that talent to make humanity's worst evil look good. So fuck her and fuck her films. Similarly, I look at a church and I don't think about the skill and beauty of the building; I think about what happens to children in there. I can think of very few religious songs that have ever made me feel anything, because it is music inextricably chained to lies.
In other words, if it would somehow prevent all children from ever being raped or mindfucked by priests ever again, I'd press a button that'd demolish every church in the world, along with all their paintings and statues and stained glass windows. And I'd push it without hesitation.
When I think about people like this who claim to follow a creator of good, but who are so terrified of being punished by the same that they turn off their thoughts to be loyal and make themselves into slaves based on hearsay and tradition, it angers me. Now I can't even look at any religion's art without first realizing from plain and simple experience that no matter what form it takes it was created out of fear.